Have you forgiven Kelvin Sampson?

[tallandsexy]

I do not worry about it either way.


The guy did a great job while he was at OU. He cheated and I think everyone cheats so I am ok with it to a point. What makes it worse is when he did the same thing again at IU. I will say that Capel has shown that OU basketball can be as big as it wants to be, where with KS we were happy with making the second round. KS did a great job, but I think Capel is going to put OU on the map all the time like KS could only do for a couple of years.


KS is one of the best at getting his teams play as a team, and play hard every game, and for that, I have a lot of respect for the man!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[BigTime]

A lot of posters in this thread didn't answer your question. They went off on tangents, which is fine. Sky spoke to some of those tangents, responding to posts in the thread, as threads will always evolve. It's not reasonable to think that a thread that will spur discussion is going to go exactly how you want it to go. One would have to have a fairly vivid imagination to think that there is a pissing match going on in this thread. It seems very civil to me, other than you're barbs with Elmo, which I took as simple banter with no harm.


I don't hold ill will towards him. His son owes me 10 dollars, but other than that we're cool.

I didn't originally answer the question because there is a certain poster that only posts not only on this board but on the other board as well in hopes of getting me to "take the bait." You see, he feels like I am stuck in the Sampson era, can't let it go, and other nonsense. He actually thinks that I hope Capel fails, I guess to somehow validate Sampson's tenure? My fiance would laugh at that and wonder why I dragged her to all of Capel's games the last three years. Capel would also laugh at that because he recruited me to Old Dominion when he was an assistant there and I almost went there because of him. He was very honest about his situation at ODU and let me know he may not be there very long, based on his Dad.

A couple years ago, for whatever reason, I responded to this poster strongly on the old board. Way too strongly, in fact. I let his pathetic digs at me and name-calling to get to me for some dumb reason. (it's just a message board) Ada can recall this event, because he countered with a strong message of his own in defense of this poster. I later apologized, but since then this particular poster has gone out of his way to try to bait me into another confrontation. Again, this is done on the football board as well. This poster used to make, and still does, signatures and references to me in nearly every post. Before Capel's first year, I thought with new staff and possibly new upbeat attitude (after the stale ending to Kelvin's tenure) that we would take the Big 12 by surprise and win a lot of games. We were close to being on track to that until we lost those home games down the stretch (Texas, KU, ATM, maybe another I don't remember) that were all very winnable. In fact, many of the game we lost were very, very winnable we just didn't have the depth and winning experience to close out games, despite Capel's tremendous effort. This poster felt that I was picking a high number of wins so that when we didn't reach it, I could say that Capel failed. Of course, I never said anything like that after the fact but that didn't keep this poster from openly suggesting that I want Capel to fail and for OU to fail. Again, my fiance would crack up at that.

I could re-hash what all went down with Kelvin because I may know a bit better than most what exactly happened with the NCAA and other situations, but there is no reason to. I don't hold ill will towards him, and hope he can find a situation where he can relax and just coach. Him leaving was great for OU.

Sky can speak for himself (which he did) and doesn't need you defending him. Yes, other posters didn't answer the question (some of them have now), but Sky's couple of paragraphs were not going to lead towards anything but trouble. I can pull up the gazillion reply Sampson thread if I want to read that stuff....

I will admit that I didn't read all of this, but your last paragraph answers my question. Thanks.


Its not that hard people. The question is a simple one.

We have all read (several times) the 6 or 7 posters that have a strong take on Sampson (bad or good). I am interested in hearing from more than just those few people.

Part of the reason that I stayed out of those long Sampson debates was because it got old hearing the same few people run circles around each other on the topic.

-BT

Tony,

It does seem pretty buddy-buddy. I just like all the coverage and talk I can get for OU basketball, so I guess it doesn't bother me as much as some....

 

[SoonerfanTU]

I don't know about that, Ooner (replace with TU). He cheated and then left us to deal with his mess. I do think there was something to forgive.

At least be objective, TU. It makes you look foolish to say there is nothing to forgive. There was something to forgive, and there is no denying that.

He was nothing but nice to me and those I know as well. He is a helluva coach and always will be.

That is YOUR opinion. I don't think he left on his own free will. I think Joe C. told him to find something if he could. It was better for both OU and Kelvin that way. It isn't like he was just going to jump ship when OU got in trouble though. He wasn't. IMO.

Secondly, he doesn't owe me anything. And if he doesn't owe me anything, I can't get mad at him for doing what is best for he and his family. If that is leaving OU, then so be it. I don't want people getting pissed off at me if I change jobs for more money, or a better opportunity.

 

[AdaSooner]

I'll add one final thought before I bow out of this discussion. I would like nothing better than to see Coach Sampson discussed in a civil manner on this board. I assure you, I can do that.

But the feelings on both sides are still so strong, it may be too soon to have a sensible, intelligent conversation without opening old wounds that seem to have a way of making Kelvin Sampson threads go south in a hurry. If this thread turns out to be like numerous others I have moderated over the past two to three years, it will be closed. I hope that doesn't happen, and it won't if everyone will be careful about what they say and think before they hit the submit reply button. Carry on.

 

[SoonerfanTU]

When it comes to whether he was a "great coach", I would say "very good", but not great. He has no NC rings. He didn't recruit well enough.

If you are saying you have to have an NC to be a great coach, then fine.

I'll say this though, there aren't many, if any, coaches I'd rather have at my school that don't have rings then Kelvin.

As for not recruiting well enough, nonsense. He had the best team in the country for the last 2+ months of the '02 season. Bad game, bad time for a QW injury, whatever, but that OU team was plenty talented enough to win it all. Same for his IU team. They were playing amazing ball before Kelvin left, and everything fell apart. He didn't recruit that entire team, but he did recruit the best player, and alot of the role players. They were a top 5 team, most likely.

 

[BigTime]

That is YOUR opinion.
How so?


I don't think he left on his own free will. I think Joe C. told him to find something if he could.

Doubt it. And it was Boren if anyone that told him to do that.

It was better for both OU and Kelvin that way. It isn't like he was just going to jump ship when OU got in trouble though. He wasn't. IMO.

Oh I agree that it was better for both. I don't think Kelvin fits at a football school like Oklahoma. Can't win over enough fans.

Secondly, he doesn't owe me anything. And if he doesn't owe me anything, I can't get mad at him for doing what is best for he and his family. If that is leaving OU, then so be it. I don't want people getting pissed off at me if I change jobs for more money, or a better opportunity.

IF you left a mess for them to clean up, then I bet they would get pissed at you. He may not owe you anything, but what he did could still upset you....thus the forgiveness part.

Like I said, we all know what you think, TU, and it isn't representative of most OU basketball fans. You are an extremist on this issue....maybe the biggest extremist in the OU basketball community (not named Kellen Sampson).

Nothing like some good old Kelvin talk to get some activity on this board during the dog days of Summer! :tiny

 

[BigTime]

I'll add one final thought before I bow out of this discussion. I would like nothing better than to see Coach Sampson discussed in a civil manner on this board. I assure you, I can do that.

But the feelings on both sides are still so strong, it may be too soon to have a sensible, intelligent conversation without opening old wounds that seem to have a way of making Kelvin Sampson threads go south in a hurry. If this thread turns out to be like numerous others I have moderated over the past two to three years, it will be closed. I hope that doesn't happen, and it won't if everyone will be careful about what they say and think before they hit the submit reply button. Carry on.

I'm thinking that you are right, Ada. Maybe in a couple more years....

 

[playmakr]

Sky can speak for himself (which he did) and doesn't need you defending him.

Just as I or anyone else don't need you to tell me what I can and can't post in a thread as long as the discussion is civil and doesn't break board rules. Nobody is breaking any rules or being uncivil. If anyone seems to be trying to rachet up the debate, it's you. (with the barbs to elmo, myself, and sky)

Sky's point is very valid to this thread. There are some, and let me just say there is nothing wrong this, that never liked Kelvin. They didn't like him long before the NCAA issues. It is less likely that these fans are going to forgive him. The last year of his tenure was the final straw for most people. That will explain why some can't let it go. That is their perrogative.

I will admit that I didn't read all of this

Maybe you should. It's all relevant.

 

[SoonerfanTU]

You can "doubt it" all you want, but I've heard from more than one person that is close to the program that that is exactly what happened. A combination of Joe C. and Boren told him that if he could find a suitable job, he should probably take it. They weren't going to fire him, and Kelvin wasn't going to leave before that.

And I don't mean that it was better for OU if Kelvin left b/c of his style, or his recruiting. It was better b/c we probably got off a little lighter in the sanctions (we got practically nothing), then if he had stayed. Kelvin's recruiting his last 5-6 years was VERY good.

 

[BigTime]

Kelvin didn't do anything to me personally, so there was never anything to forgive on my part. He did a great job as OU's head coach for 11 seasons. Anyone who can't say that is in denial.

Could he have done more? Absolutely! Sampson brought in good players and a few great ones during his time at OU. But Capel is proving he could have done a lot better job of recruiting by working the AAU circuit and catering to high school coaches, which IMO were two of KS's main weaknesses as a recruiter.

I was plenty upset when Kelvin left us in a mess three years ago, because no one supported and defended him with more heartfelt enthusiasm than yours truly. I'd challenge anyone to prove that statement wrong. Does that change what he accomplished in those eleven seasons? Of course not. Yet, there is no way to ignore the fact that what he did was wrong. I lost respect for him when he put our program in a tough spot with the NCAA, and he didn't help matters any when he repeated the offense at IU.

Forgiveness was never part of the equation. I'm glad God doesn't work that way or I would be in a heap of trouble.

Its all semantics I guess. I guess I shouldn't have used the word, forgiveness in the question. My bad.

I guess I should have said are you "over it"? Or will you remember the good more than the bad? To me, it all means the same thing in this case. If you love OU basketball as much as I, then you were pretty deeply impacted by what he did. It took some time for me to get "over it". Now I am.

 

[BigTime]

You can "doubt it" all you want, but I've heard from more than one person that is close to the program that that is exactly what happened. A combination of Joe C. and Boren told him that if he could find a suitable job, he should probably take it. They weren't going to fire him, and Kelvin wasn't going to leave before that.

And I don't mean that it was better for OU if Kelvin left b/c of his style, or his recruiting. It was better b/c we probably got off a little lighter in the sanctions (we got practically nothing), then if he had stayed. Kelvin's recruiting his last 5-6 years was VERY good.

I talk to people too, TU. The issue was complicated at the time. Indiana was the best option. A true gift really.

It was getting better for sure, but Kelvin was getting away from the guys he coached best. He will always do better with the Johnny Gilberts of the world and not the Damion James....

 

[BigTime]

Just as I or anyone else don't need you to tell me what I can and can't post in a thread as long as the discussion is civil and doesn't break board rules. Nobody is breaking any rules or being uncivil. If anyone seems to be trying to rachet up the debate, it's you. (with the barbs to elmo, myself, and sky)

Just trying to get folks to answer the question. That's all. Its neat that you are monitoring me. Start another thread if you don't like the question. Its not that hard.

Sky's point is very valid to this thread. There are some, and let me just say there is nothing wrong this, that never liked Kelvin. They didn't like him long before the NCAA issues. It is less likely that these fans are going to forgive him. The last year of his tenure was the final straw for most people. That will explain why some can't let it go. That is their perrogative.

Let them answer the question then. I already know who some of those people are. I already know that they have an agenda, and I don't need to be told it again. Sky is a top 5 poster on this board imo. I hold his posting in a very high regard.


Maybe you should. It's all relevant.

No thanks.

ldwt356:

 

[campbest]

My thoughts:

1.) A lot of people are really passionate about this.

2.) Never was a huge fan/hater of Sampson, didn't grow up in an OU basketball house (my father went to KU, no one is perfect).

3.) As a middle school and high school player, I never left Sampson's camps saying "man, I want to play for that guy", but that was just based off a few instances; too young and naive to really know any difference.

4.) Style of play, wasn't enamored with it at all, but that was just my opinion. I will admit, not many teams wanted to play OU under Kelvin; when you have a team that grinds it out, anything can happen.

5.) As for the forgiveness aspect, sure, I can. Doesn't really matter to me in the long run if he slighted OU because everything happens for a reason. He cheated, got caught, our recruiting class was gutted, names like Calipari and Wright were mentioned as replacements, some guy named Capel was hired (think that's the guy who hit the shot against UNC), after an introductory season we then reach a second round and elite eight while pulling in three straight classes with McD's All-Americans. Honestly, I hope Kelvin gets another job down the road, not for all the naysayers, but for his own opportunity to have sort of redemption. The guy is not a criminal.

6.) Joe C. and Boren had a hand in pushing Sampson toward the IU job...I can guarantee that. It was a great opportunity for both parties, Sampson to become "the man" and OU to find a coach which could come in and deal with the incoming probabtion.

I think it's all about perspective, do you concentrate on the past or future? Personally, I would rather be excited for the future then concentrate on those times when I might have been frustrated.

OU basketball is poppin' right now...and let's be honest, it is because Kelvin cheated.

 

[SoonerNorm]

For me, this has been a very interesting thread. There are various opinions as one would expect but I don't think I expected a Kelvin Sampson thread to remain on good terms but this one actually has. :clap

Hopefully, others will join in with their opinions as well.

 

[Sid]

Kelvin didn't do anything to me personally, so there was never anything to forgive on my part. He did a great job as OU's head coach for 11 seasons. Anyone who can't say that is in denial.

Could he have done more? Absolutely! Sampson brought in good players and a few great ones during his time at OU. But Capel is proving he could have done a lot better job of recruiting by working the AAU circuit and catering to high school coaches, which IMO were two of KS's main weaknesses as a recruiter.

I was plenty upset when Kelvin left us in a mess three years ago, because no one supported and defended him with more heartfelt enthusiasm than yours truly. I'd challenge anyone to prove that statement wrong. Does that change what he accomplished in those eleven seasons? Of course not. Yet, there is no way to ignore the fact that what he did was wrong. I lost respect for him when he put our program in a tough spot with the NCAA, and he didn't help matters any when he repeated the offense at IU.

Forgiveness was never part of the equation. I'm glad God doesn't work that way or I would be in a heap of trouble.

Nice post, Ada. I'm glad you're ok. I thought maybe you had taken ill or maybe you had gone on vacation. NC?

Its all semantics I guess. I guess I shouldn't have used the word, forgiveness in the question. My bad.

Don't be too hard on yourself, BT. You had good intentions but you went about it the wrong way. You should have started a thread that asked the following question: How many people on this board would like to say Thank You to Kelvin Sampson?

If you had framed your question like that, the responses would have been 100 percent positive. You have to realize there may be some people out there who are still very sensitive when it comes to Kelvin and they don’t want to admit publicly they were wrong about him.

Everybody is entitled to their opinion. Just because I believe OJ was framed, it doesn't make me a bad person. It may make me an idiot but not a bad person.

 

[playmakr]

Just trying to get folks to answer the question. That's all. Its neat that you are monitoring me. Start another thread if you don't like the question. Its not that hard.

Nothing was said by me about the question. It's a good question and a good thread topic. The discussion has been fruitful. You became curious over a response that wasn't perfect, and over a post that was very good and pertained to the thread. I questioned why it was such a weak post, and I think we have covered it enough. As for the monitoring, I like to read all the posts in threads to get a feel for the discussion.

Let them answer the question then. I already know who some of those people are. I already know that they have an agenda, and I don't need to be told it again.

Skyy seemed to believe that it was worth discussing further. I happened to agree. It would be a pretty boring thread if people said "yes" or "no." People with conscious level thinking like to expand on their answers to spur meaningful discussion. It's part of our fabric.

No thanks.

Interesting. You asked me a question, and then asked me (in a statement) more or less why I didn't answer it right out. I then answered it as openly as possible, and you decided it wasn't something you wanted to read. Are you feeling like you were being rubbed the wrong way? Certainly isn't my intent.

 

[skyvue]

You have to realize there may be some people out there who are still very sensitive when it comes to Kelvin and they don’t want to admit publicly they were wrong about him.

Many more have yet to admit they disliked Sampson from the jump and nothing he could have done would have changed that, short of a NC -- and truth be told, even that might not have been enough for some.

You're clearly convinced you were "right" all along about Sampson and that anyone who ever defended him was "wrong," but that's a questionable position to take, at best. It's a rare human being who can be judged so objectively.

There are always grey areas.

 

[sybarite]

Forgive Kelvin? For what?

He "violated" an NCAA rule, which I regard as no more serious than stepping on a crack in the sidewalk. USC violated a bunch, without penalty, which is typical of the NCAA. Some schools are punished. Some are not.

I could care less if he violated an NCAA rule. I would prefer that everyone realized that the NCAA has always been an organization filled with rampant hypocrisy, an organization that has always lied about its stated purpose.

I have stated before the fallacy of the NCAA, and there is no reason to state it again. It is an entity that should be banned from any involvement with academic institutions.

I should forgive Kelvin for what?---taking OU to the Final Four?--taking us to a good number of playoffs? I forgive him for being a great coach. I forgive him for restoring OU to national prominence.

Now, the NCAA, I won't forgive for seventy years of hypocrisy.

Let's talk about Reggie Bush and USC.

 

[playmakr]

Forgive Kelvin? For what?

He "violated" an NCAA rule, which I regard as no more serious than stepping on a crack in the sidewalk. USC violated a bunch, without penalty, which is typical of the NCAA. Some schools are punished. Some are not.

I could care less if he violated an NCAA rule. I would prefer that everyone realized that the NCAA has always been an organization filled with rampant hypocrisy, an organization that has always lied about its stated purpose.

I have stated before the fallacy of the NCAA, and there is no reason to state it again. It is an entity that should be banned from any involvement with academic institutions.

I should forgive Kelvin for what?---taking OU to the Final Four?--taking us to a good number of playoffs? I forgive him for being a great coach. I forgive him for restoring OU to national prominence.

Now, the NCAA, I won't forgive for seventy years of hypocrisy.

Let's talk about Reggie Bush and USC.

Miss you on the political thread, Sybarite.

 

[sybarite]

Miss you on the political thread, Sybarite.

I don't miss it.