Have you forgiven Kelvin Sampson?

[Sid]

I respected how hard his teams played. Where I begun to take issue was with what I perceived as his lack of recruiting and his inability to teach offense. Then his "perceived" (may just be me) arrogance and me attitude began to wear on me and then the cheating and more importantly the response to the cheating drove me batty.
And then he did it all over again at IU.

But again, I've said it before, Sampson was a very good coach at OU and had some very good times...but I'm so happy Coach Capel is here and is doing things (especially in recruiting) that we were force fed to believe couldn't be done at a "football" school. That was hogwash. It just takes a little bit more work and a little bit more personality. Coach Capel has that.

Hater! :ez-laugh:

That was a GREAT post, Cheno. Thank you! That's EXACTLY how I feel about KS and his tenure at Oklahoma. If we ever get a chance to meet in person, I would like to buy you a beer.

:jcapel

 

[Cheno]

Hater! :ez-laugh:

That was a GREAT post, Cheno. Thank you! That's EXACTLY how I feel about KS and his tenure at Oklahoma. If we ever get a chance to meet in person, I would like to buy you a beer.

:jcapel

I always allow people to buy me beer. On my way out the door in a few to have a buddy by me beer and BBQ. It doesn't get much better than that. :clap

To me really the most telling part about KS was after he left OU. Let's be brutally honest...he was given a gift from the Basketball Gods with the IU job. With the mess he had OU in to land a top 5 job was incredible and lucky.
So when he screwed that up bigger than he screwed up at OU and in such a quick time pretty much sums it all up for me.

 

[Sid]

To me really the most telling part about KS was after he left OU. Let's be brutally honest...he was given a gift from the Basketball Gods with the IU job. With the mess he had OU in to land a top 5 job was incredible and lucky.
So when he screwed that up bigger than he screwed up at OU and in such a quick time pretty much sums it all up for me.

Any reasonable person who has any common sense at all would agree with your comments.

 

[BigTime]

Forgive Kelvin? For what?

He "violated" an NCAA rule, which I regard as no more serious than stepping on a crack in the sidewalk. USC violated a bunch, without penalty, which is typical of the NCAA. Some schools are punished. Some are not.

I could care less if he violated an NCAA rule. I would prefer that everyone realized that the NCAA has always been an organization filled with rampant hypocrisy, an organization that has always lied about its stated purpose.

I have stated before the fallacy of the NCAA, and there is no reason to state it again. It is an entity that should be banned from any involvement with academic institutions.

I should forgive Kelvin for what?---taking OU to the Final Four?--taking us to a good number of playoffs? I forgive him for being a great coach. I forgive him for restoring OU to national prominence.

Now, the NCAA, I won't forgive for seventy years of hypocrisy.

Let's talk about Reggie Bush and USC.

Jebus, I wish I wouldn't have phrased the question with the word forgive. Please FORGIVE me for doing so...sheesh.

I also take it that you see the good over the bad. Glad to hear it. Me too. That was all I was asking....

Play,

Got a little flustered there. Rough day. Peace.

 

[playmakr]

To me really the most telling part about KS was after he left OU. Let's be brutally honest...he was given a gift from the Basketball Gods with the IU job. With the mess he had OU in to land a top 5 job was incredible and lucky.
So when he screwed that up bigger than he screwed up at OU and in such a quick time pretty much sums it all up for me.

Good post, Cheno. Kelvin's tenure at IU was very disappointing. Even if you give (just for argument's sake, let's not get into this) him that he wasn't knowingly making excess calls, he has to have a better self-compliance than that. It was really very embarrassing for him, and I said so at the time.

Cheno, I must say that I feel you have always been very honest and fair with your criticism's/compliments towards OU and particularly Kelvin. As a Jayhawk fan (I know you pull for OU) that is something that wouldn't always be easy to do. I feel you call it like you see it, and many of your beefs with Kelvin are shared by me, the only main difference is I did my best while he was here to pull for him overall with a little more bravado simply because they are my #1 team. Think of it like Kelvin coaching at KU. You might have had problems with him while he was there, but you damn sure were going to be behind him while he was there unless there was something majorly wrong (breaking rules, major conduct issues) going on. Others may not feel that way, but I do. This applies to most posters on this board and the old board, or is it boards, man I forget how many there have been.


Bigtime, no big deal. Hopefully you didn't feel like I was getting on you for the thread. Very good discussion, I enjoy the different insights.

 

[Cheno]

Good post, Cheno. Kelvin's tenure at IU was very disappointing. Even if you give (just for argument's sake, let's not get into this) him that he wasn't knowingly making excess calls, he has to have a better self-compliance than that. It was really very embarrassing for him, and I said so at the time.
Cheno, I must say that I feel you have always been very honest and fair with your criticism's/compliments towards OU and particularly Kelvin. As a Jayhawk fan (I know you pull for OU) that is something that wouldn't always be easy to do. I feel you call it like you see it, and many of your beefs with Kelvin are shared by me, the only main difference is I did my best while he was here to pull for him overall with a little more bravado simply because they are my #1 team. Think of it like Kelvin coaching at KU. You might have had problems with him while he was there, but you damn sure were going to be behind him while he was there unless there was something majorly wrong (breaking rules, major conduct issues) going on. Others may not feel that way, but I do. This applies to most posters on this board and the old board, or is it boards, man I forget how many there have been.

Totally agree Play. I was always rooting for OU...I just got tired of KS act and thought OU deserved better. All the points that I made and got villified for at the time about KS were spot on as we look back at them now. So yeah, I was critical but my criticisms were spot on. Just like many that shared the same criticisms (like yourself). I guess the biggest one that chapped my butt was his not recruiting hard in the summers and the KS fanatics that said OU was a football school, OU couldn't get better recruits, summer recruiting wasn't that important anyways, etc. That was absolute BS and hogwash and people just drinking the Kool-Aid and backing KS too no end. That was just plain dumb. Heck, I even bashed on Roy all the time at KU for his on a year off a year recruiting style. Drove me batty as did Roy's "we can't out recruit Duke and UNC east of the Mississippi" statements. BS. You are right...I call it as I see it.

 

[seniorsooner]

As an Oklahoma fan, yes, I have largely forgiven him. If I were an Indiana fan, hell no. In that instance I would call him a cheater, liar and scumbag until the day that I died, and with good reason.

 

[SoonerNorm]

I think that fans will many times bury their heads in the sand when it comes to coaches who deserve some criticism. It doesn't mean they are horrible coaches or that they should be fired but pointing out areas of needed improvement is not a cardinal sin. As Play said, Cheno tries to call it like he sees it. Although I admit that my glasses are somewhat Crimson, I also like to believe I call it like I see it. Doesn't mean I'm right, just that I try to give praise where I see coaches doing a really good job and pointing out areas in which I think improvement is needed. I haven't seen a perfect coach yet.

I believe it was Sky who pointed out that fans never point out problems about Switzer and Tubbs. He is ABSOLUTELY correct! The OU football program was embarrassed several times when Barry was the coach. Let's face it, OU was looked on as the scum of college football (right along with the University of Miami) by fans across the nation for years. Deservedly so. He did some great things and, having met him on more than one occassion, I can honestly say he is one of the most charismatic and entertaining guys I was ever around. That still didn't change the fact his program was completely out of control during years of his tenure.

Billy, funny as all heck, but shady too. We all know about him giving the one finger salute to fans at other schools and other episodes that showed extremely poor sportsmanship. Most don't even want to hear which players were running around with wads of hundred dollar bills in their pockets.

YES, I know that some will not want to read these comments but facts are facts and it doesn't bother me to point them out. In fact, as Sky insinuated, it is very hypocritical to attack Kelvin and allow the other bad apples off the hook. Barry and Billy were not angels and should not be canonized.

I didn't hate Switzer, Billy, or Kelvin...not by a longshot. But, I hated it when they did bad things or turned their heads when players were doing bad things. In many, many ways each of those guys contributed greatly to OU athletics. But, I honestly think we are much better off with all of them gone. I am very glad we have Bob Stoops running the football program (but here's a hint Bob, lay off the sideline reporters at half time, they are just trying to do their job) as well as Capel (but here's your tip, Jeff, watch some tape of Kelvin's teams playing defense) and I hope both are at OU for a long time. But, if I see either coach in need of some criticism, I likely won't be silent about it for long.

 

[seniorsooner]

Forgive Kelvin? For what?

He "violated" an NCAA rule, which I regard as no more serious than stepping on a crack in the sidewalk. USC violated a bunch, without penalty, which is typical of the NCAA. Some schools are punished. Some are not.

I could care less if he violated an NCAA rule. I would prefer that everyone realized that the NCAA has always been an organization filled with rampant hypocrisy, an organization that has always lied about its stated purpose.

I have stated before the fallacy of the NCAA, and there is no reason to state it again. It is an entity that should be banned from any involvement with academic institutions.

I should forgive Kelvin for what?---taking OU to the Final Four?--taking us to a good number of playoffs? I forgive him for being a great coach. I forgive him for restoring OU to national prominence.

Now, the NCAA, I won't forgive for seventy years of hypocrisy.

Let's talk about Reggie Bush and USC.

Let's not act like this was Kelvin buying a kid a plane ticket to fly to his mother's funeral or something. While not as bad as the crap that has gone on at USC, this was a legitimate NCAA rule that is there for a reason. And he broke it repeatedly and ultimately knowingly. Then he lied about it not only to the NCAA but to his employer. That resulted in the absolute destruction (for a few years anyway) of Indiana basketball.

For anyone to act like Kelvin is a saint and has done nothing wrong is ludicrous. You really need to take the blinders off.

 

[IndySooner]

To me really the most telling part about KS was after he left OU. Let's be brutally honest...he was given a gift from the Basketball Gods with the IU job. With the mess he had OU in to land a top 5 job was incredible and lucky.
So when he screwed that up bigger than he screwed up at OU and in such a quick time pretty much sums it all up for me.

This is where I lost my respect. I was a stauch supporter and defender of Kelvin while he was at OU. He got a GREAT job at IU, and proceeded to screw it up immediately. That told me more than I wanted to know about Kelvin.

I'll never have ill-will toward the guy. Granted, there were many stories in the late '90's about what was going on at OU. But I have the perspective of being at a few different schools in my day, and let's just say, for example, that OJ Mayo wasn't the first player that Tim Floyd "helped out". It happens everywhere.

On a personal level, every experience I had with Kelvin was okay. It's not like he was bubbly every time I talked to him, but no one is.

I forgive the guy. Hell, I never had any reason to forgive him. I more feel sorry for him. Frankly, I feel like he's the kid on the playground that gets caught because he's not a good liar. The bad guys get away with it because they don't have a problem lying, but the good kids get caught and get in trouble because they don't know how to.

I could be wrong. I have been before. Once.

 

[NMSooner'80]

Was there ever a "Have you forgiven Switzer?" thread on an OU football board? I seriously doubt it. There's a serious double standard in how these coaches are remembered (and of course, the usual response is, "Well, Switzer won national titles." But that doesn't fly -- if we're going to get riled up about NCAA violations, the results on the field or court shouldn't matter).

Most (not all, Elmo, but most) of those who claim to be so outraged and offended by Sampson's actions think Switzer hung the moon, so that tells me all I need to know about their moral outrage. Switzer got us into MUCH bigger trouble than Sampson ever did, but 99.9% of OU football fans don't give a hoot about that.

The truth is, Sampson's only unforgivable sin was not being the second coming of Billy Tubbs; that's the thing many of his detractors cannot forgive him for. They disliked him almost from Day One for that reason. The NCAA violations are just a handy excuse.

The program only had the one real "hiccup" season ('06-07), so I think the damage was minimal. I think more damage was done over the years by the people who Skyvue said were the ones who hated Kelvin for not being the "second coming of Billy Tubbs." They did nothing but tear down the program for all of those years, in my book. And don't get me started on a few "Insider" (Owen Field) types who put 100% of the blame on Kelvin for the time when Bomar/Quinn/stupid Big Red Sports guy broke NCAA rules and got OU all of that bad press.

I'm much more inclinced to forgive Kelvin for anything than I am ever going to feel like forgiving the "haters." I consider that crowd the bunch that would "rather score 90 and lose by 10, than score 60 and win by 10." And that's the type of fan that I don't respect.

 

[sybarite]

Let's not act like this was Kelvin buying a kid a plane ticket to fly to his mother's funeral or something. While not as bad as the crap that has gone on at USC, this was a legitimate NCAA rule that is there for a reason. And he broke it repeatedly and ultimately knowingly. Then he lied about it not only to the NCAA but to his employer. That resulted in the absolute destruction (for a few years anyway) of Indiana basketball.

For anyone to act like Kelvin is a saint and has done nothing wrong is ludicrous. You really need to take the blinders off.

I appreciate all of those who have broken NCAA rules, and I don't think that they are there for a legitimate reason that has anything to do with academia.

 

[Sid]

I forgive the guy. Hell, I never had any reason to forgive him. I more feel sorry for him. Frankly, I feel like he's the kid on the playground that gets caught because he's not a good liar. The bad guys get away with it because they don't have a problem lying, but the good kids get caught and get in trouble because they don't know how to.

“When you're the victim of the behavior, it's black and white; when you're the perpetrator, there are a million shades of gray.” LS

 

[seniorsooner]

I appreciate all of those who have broken NCAA rules, and I don't think that they are there for a legitimate reason that has anything to do with academia.

You "appreciate" those who have broken NCAA rules? Big Dave Bliss fan then? Todd Bozeman?

The phone calls thing is there for a legitimate reason, and let me tell you what that reason is: the recruits themselves. Imagine sitting in your home and the phone ringing 500 times a day, every single day. At all times of the day/night. Do you think that might get a little overwhelming? I think it would. They put limits on the amount of contact that can be had with these kids for a reason. To say that all NCAA rules are bogus and without merit is flat out dumb. No offense of course.

 

[SoonersRule]

No, It was unforgivable what he did. He wasn't that good of a coach despite what people think. I am glad he is out of here. He got too much credit for one "good" year.

 

[seniorsooner]

No, It was unforgivable what he did. He wasn't that good of a coach despite what people think. I am glad he is out of here. He got too much credit for one "good" year.

Kelvin was a really good coach. I will stop short of saying great coach because of head scratchers like Manhattan, Indiana State and most notably and most painful, Indiana. Still, it cannot be denied that he squeezed eveyr last drop of potential and then some out of some of his teams. Some of those teams probably had no business even making the tournament, and he got them there.

What does bother me about him is the lying to his employer. He did it at Indiana, and I have a good feeling he lied to Boren as well. That will get you in serious hot water (or even fired) in any job. I don't care if you're a college basketball coach or a clerk at 7-11. That type of behavior is inexcusable.

 

[Sid]

Nobody wanted to play a Kelvin-coached OU team... Nobody.

Unless it was in the first round of the tournament. Then every rinky-dink school wanted to draw Oklahoma. :ez-laugh:

:billy2849:

 

[jmizzy4ou]

Big, you can add me to the group who remembers the good times, yet I'm also DISAPPOINTED in the way it ended. I'm 1st and foremost a SOONER. I will support, and root for anyone who the admin sees worthy of coaching, teaching, leading, etc. I never had issue with the Sampson style of play because I know basketball, and I understood that his style was effective if not pretty. I always appreciated the intensity and effort that his teams played with. I also remember the fun I had as a kid watching the Tubbs teams rev up the offense. Both have a place in my heart..... I loved Tubbs, I loved KS, and I love Capel, 1st because they coach or coached at MY school, and 2nd because all 3 have provided me with some great Sooner memories.

Being an individual who has made many personal mistakes in my life, I do not harbor ill will towards anyone today. I'm thankful that my GOD and most of my peers have forgiven me as they have seen me transform my life back to what it was prior to my venture into the life of crime. I'm over 10 yrs removed from prison and all that came with it, yet there are those who will always judge me and see me as a loser. I'm ok with that. What they don't know is that their judgement bothers them more than it bothers me.

I use that example because obviously KS has moved on. The people who can't get over it are like a barrel of acid, decaying on the inside while everyone around them is not affected by their bitterness. I'm sure that in due time KS will have the opportunity to make amends for whatever wrong he is judged by. If he sucessfully does that, then most people will someday put the OU/IU fiasco behind them. Many won't because they never liked the guy for various reasons, and it just gives them fuel for their personal fires. I hope that someday the program can embrace him and mend the broken fences on both sides, just like Switzer. I'm always looking for the positive because life is too short to focus on the negative for more than a second. Most of all I wish for KS to see his errors and change his ways. His legacy will be determined by his reaction to the fall.

 

[seniorsooner]

JMiz, excellent post. I agree with your choice of the word "disappointed". I don't harbor any ill will toward Kelvin. I am disappointed with his behavior, however. Now like I said above, if I were an Indiana fan I would have a VERY difficult time not actually disliking the guy. But I'm not, so that's a moot point.

Most of all I wish for KS to see his errors and change his ways. His legacy will be determined by his reaction to the fall.

Excellent, excellent statements. And that's what disappoints me even more in Kelvin. Unless I am mistaken (very possible), I have not seen Kelvin acknowledge that he did something wrong and apologize for the ramifications it has caused. I would like to see that from him someday.

 

[skyvue]

He got too much credit for one "good" year.

That's a pretty questionable statement, given that Sampson won National Coach of the Year awards in two different seasons and that he has the best winning percentage in the history of Sooners hoops.

Both of those are hard to achieve if you only have one good season.