Have you forgiven Kelvin Sampson?

[luckyc1423]

I am glad he did what he did...so we can get capel in here! The team is alot better to watch with Capel on the side lines...

 

[NickZepp]

While I was disappointed in the way the Sampson era at OU ended, I still remembered KS as the coach who got OU to the Final Four and generally put a competitive team on the floor year in and year out.

Sampson is not the recruiter Capel is, but there was a time when he was considered one of the best college BB coaches in the country by the national media. The fact that his teams were generally in the top 25 meant that I got to see many OU games on TV while stationed far away from Oklahoma; and I was always thankful for that.

The way I see it is that KS kept OU Basketball relevant after Tubbs made the program a success. Because of both men's efforts, Castiglione was able to convince a young, highly-talented coach named Capel to come to OU and turn a good program into a powerhouse. Without KS bridging the gap between Tubbs and Capel, I don't know if Capel comes to OU. While OU does not have the BB tradition of Kansas, I can't think of any other programs in the Big 12 that have enjoyed OU's long term success.

I wouldn't call us a powerhouse yet. We have yet to win a title of any type under Capel. That's not a powerhouse by any means.

 

[OKURanger]

I wouldn't call us a powerhouse yet. We have yet to win a title of any type under Capel. That's not a powerhouse by any means.

You're right, but the title's coming. My bet would be in three years, as long as we can hold onto Capel, OU will be talked about as a perennial top 5 team.

 

[BigTime]

The only reason we didn't make the NCAA Tournament Capel's first year is because we didn't play our best player for the first half of the season.

Not a chance. We went on the huge losing streak well after our best player had gotten on the floor.


Norm,

So have your forgiven him or not? Some of you guys are giving great answers but not answering the question. Are you able to remember for the good, or does the bad outweigh the good at this point?

As for Kelvin being a bad guy,

Talk to people that worked with him every day. His office assistant. His grad assistants. The mainstream media (Hale, Eshbach, BBS). They will all tell you that he is a great guy. Al has no reason to cover that up (hell he rags on Smellsofbourbon all the time). There is little doubt in my mind that Kelvin is a good guy off the court.

 

[skyvue]

Was there ever a "Have you forgiven Switzer?" thread on an OU football board? I seriously doubt it. There's a serious double standard in how these coaches are remembered (and of course, the usual response is, "Well, Switzer won national titles." But that doesn't fly -- if we're going to get riled up about NCAA violations, the results on the field or court shouldn't matter).

Most (not all, Elmo, but most) of those who claim to be so outraged and offended by Sampson's actions think Switzer hung the moon, so that tells me all I need to know about their moral outrage. Switzer got us into MUCH bigger trouble than Sampson ever did, but 99.9% of OU football fans don't give a hoot about that.

The truth is, Sampson's only unforgivable sin was not being the second coming of Billy Tubbs; that's the thing many of his detractors cannot forgive him for. They disliked him almost from Day One for that reason. The NCAA violations are just a handy excuse.

 

[BigTime]

Was there ever a "Have you forgiven Switzer?" thread on an OU football board? I seriously doubt it. There's a serious double standard in how these coaches are remembered (and of course, the usual response is, "Well, Switzer won national titles." But that doesn't fly -- if we're going to get riled up about NCAA violations, the results on the field or court shouldn't matter).

Most (not all, Elmo, but most) of those who claim to be so outraged and offended by Sampson's actions think Switzer hung the moon, so that tells me all I need to know about their moral outrage. Switzer got us into MUCH bigger trouble than Sampson ever did, but 99.9% of OU football fans don't give a hoot about that.

The truth is, Sampson's only unforgivable sin was not being the second coming of Billy Tubbs; that's the thing many of his detractors cannot forgive him for. They disliked him almost from Day One for that reason. The NCAA violations are just a handy excuse.

C'mon sky. This post is weak.

It is really laughable how a small handful of posters on this site act like Kelvin did nothing worth upsetting the fanbase. It has nothing to do with those that didn't like when he got the job. It has everything to do with people like me that were huge fans of his and supported the program. I was hurt by what he did. I was angry at him, but now I have forgiven him and remember the good things that he did. That is why I made this post. I wanted to see if others have also gotten over what he did.

You guys on the "Sampson has done nothing to have to be forgiven" side are just as bad as those that you loathe. Quit lumping all of us into the same boat. There were plenty of people (ex. myself, Ada, and Tomkar) that loved his teams and the way he coached.

 

[skyvue]

There's nothing whatsoever weak about my post -- I stand by every word in it.

I was angry at Sampson, too -- about the violations and even more so that he chose to cut and run rather than staying here and cleaning up the mess he made -- and I posted about it at length at the time.

And I've never said Sampson had nothing to be forgiven for, so who's doing the lumping together here?

But the vast majority of people who have repeatedly and continuously ragged on Sampson since his departure -- the ones who haven't "forgiven" him -- were dogging him LONG before the NCAA violations came out. And most of them don't judge Switzer in the same harsh light.

I'm sorry you found my perfectly legitimate response weak. If my characterization of the naysyers doesn't fit you (and it certainly wasn't you or Ada I had in mind), then it's safe to assume it wasn't you I was referring to. To my knowledge, you've never been a Sampson naysayer. Others in this thread can't say the same.

 

[BigTime]

There's nothing whatsoever weak about my post -- I stand by every word in it.

I was angry at Sampson, too -- about the violations and even more so that he chose to cut and run rather than staying here and cleaning up the mess he made -- and I posted about it at length at the time.

And I've never said Sampson had nothing to be forgiven for, so who's doing the lumping together here?

But the vast majority of people who have repeatedly and continuously ragged on Sampson since his departure -- the ones who haven't "forgiven" him -- were dogging him LONG before the NCAA violations came out. And most of them don't judge Switzer in the same harsh light.

I'm sorry you found my perfectly legitimate response weak. If my characterization of the naysyers doesn't fit you (and it certainly wasn't you or Ada I had in mind), then it's safe to assume it wasn't you I was referring to. To my knowledge, you've never been a Sampson naysayer. Others in this thread can't say the same.

I could care less about Coach Switzer in this debate. I am talking Sampson. I didn't mean to lump you, but from your posting history, you have acted much the same as the ones that pretend like he has done nothing deserving of the fanbase's forgiveness. I thought you were going for more of the same in this post.

I would also argue with you that most of the fanbase (the 5000 or so real OU basketball fans) did like Kelvin, and were hurt by what he did. And at some point (maybe not yet) had to forgive him. I just wanted to know who has and who hasn't (and why or why not). It's a fair question.

I will go ahead and assume that you have forgiven him and are able to remember the good over the bad.

 

[playmakr]

But the vast majority of people who have repeatedly and continuously ragged on Sampson since his departure -- the ones who haven't "forgiven" him -- were dogging him LONG before the NCAA violations came out. And most of them don't judge Switzer in the same harsh light.

Indeed.

Sky makes a legitimate post with is opinion and it gets called "weak" because it wasn't exactly what bigtime wanted to hear. I didn't see bigtime saying "weak" when posters went outside the bounds of the thread (NCAA violations) and talked about other things they "disliked" about Kelvin.

 

[BigTime]

Indeed.

Sky makes a legitimate post with is opinion and it gets called "weak" because it wasn't exactly what bigtime wanted to hear. I didn't see bigtime saying "weak" when posters went outside the bounds of the thread (NCAA violations) and talked about other things they "disliked" about Kelvin.

It was called weak because he didn't answer my question and is about to turn this into another pi$$ing match between the the same 6 posters. But thanks for your input. I was hoping we could get past this by now....

You didn't answer the question either, hoss.

 

[elmocarp]

Was there ever a "Have you forgiven Switzer?" thread on an OU football board? I seriously doubt it. There's a serious double standard in how these coaches are remembered (and of course, the usual response is, "Well, Switzer won national titles." But that doesn't fly -- if we're going to get riled up about NCAA violations, the results on the field or court shouldn't matter).

Most (not all, Elmo, but most) of those who claim to be so outraged and offended by Sampson's actions think Switzer hung the moon, so that tells me all I need to know about their moral outrage. Switzer got us into MUCH bigger trouble than Sampson ever did, but 99.9% of OU football fans don't give a hoot about that.

The truth is, Sampson's only unforgivable sin was not being the second coming of Billy Tubbs; that's the thing many of his detractors cannot forgive him for. They disliked him almost from Day One for that reason. The NCAA violations are just a handy excuse.

I think this is a great post. I think sky and I disagree pretty wholeheartedly in our opinions of Sampson, but I totally agree with him about why so many OU fans didn't care for him. I generally believe that most OU fans enjoy hoops as football's offeseason sport...they support it, spend money on it and are plenty passionate about it, but it isn't the first love. The fallout from that is that not many fans grew up watching basketball and learning to love the game and all that blah blah blah. So, that is a fanbase that is going to value style over substance...period.

I think OU fans couldn't embrace Kelvin because his style wasn't readily accessible for most fans. Its harder to appreciate toughness and execution than it is athleticism and a fast pace, especially if you aren't a particularly well-informed fan base. Additionally, Kelvin's mediocre tournament record (I think that is a fair description) also turned off a lot of the fans who wanted to be associated with a winner and be excited about march madness. Kelvin also coached during the time OSU became relevant again, and not just relevant, but they got to a final four before Kelvin did and they played a more exciting, entertaining style.

So, if you had been a staunch Kelvin supporter when the violations occurred, I can certainly see why you would want to call BS on all the outraged OU fans. The guy was never really embraced by OU fans and it does come off as ingenuine to hear people who didn't like him (but never suggested he was a cheater) saying, "See, I told you" when the ish hit the fan.

And all the people saying Kelvin was great with his support staff and the media are right on. The guy knew how to get the right support from the right people. But I couldn't care less if a guy is rude to Al Eschbeck or not (in fact, I'd probably prefer it). My problems with the guy only come from an extended period of my life when I was very close to people in the program and I formed the opinion (which I am not trying to spread or convert anyone to) that he was a self-interested bully and a fraud.

But I have always been just as displeased (and oftentimes embarrassed) by Barry Switzer and Billy Tubbs as I have been Kelvin. In fact, I don't think Kelvin comes anywhere close to being the jerk or cheat or poor spokesperson for OU that Switzer was.

 

[SoonerNorm]

Not a chance. We went on the huge losing streak well after our best player had gotten on the floor.


Norm,

So have your forgiven him or not? Some of you guys are giving great answers but not answering the question. Are you able to remember for the good, or does the bad outweigh the good at this point?

As for Kelvin being a bad guy,

Talk to people that worked with him every day. His office assistant. His grad assistants. The mainstream media (Hale, Eshbach, BBS). They will all tell you that he is a great guy. Al has no reason to cover that up (hell he rags on Smellsofbourbon all the time). There is little doubt in my mind that Kelvin is a good guy off the court.

Yes. I am not very good at holding grudges for extended periods of time.

I think some people still hold ill feelings toward Kelvin because they don't think he ever actually admitted his mistakes and sincerely apologized.

 

[skyvue]

I think some people still hold ill feelings toward Kelvin because they don't think he ever actually admitted his mistakes and sincerely apologized.

I think you're right that some feel that way, Norm. I was disappointed in his responses at the time.

And in response to Big's question, yes, I've forgiven Sampson. But I mostly don't give him a great deal of thought. I appreciate what he did while he was at OU, but he's gone and I've moved on.

It would suit me fine if his name never came up here. I'm surprised BT harbored any illusions about this thread not becoming contentious. Those who always hated him still hate him, and they are not shy about expressing their opinion of him.

And as we've seen, I -- and others -- are not shy about responding to those posts.

 

[BigTime]

I think you're right that some feel that way, Norm. I was disappointed in his responses at the time.

And in response to Big's question, yes, I've forgiven Sampson. But I mostly don't give him a great deal of thought. I appreciate what he did while he was at OU, but he's gone and I've moved on.

It would suit me fine if his name never came up here. I'm surprised BT harbored any illusions about this thread not becoming contentious. Those who always hated him still hate him, and they are not shy about expressing their opinion of him.

And as we've seen, I -- and others -- are not shy about responding to those posts.

See that's just it though. I want his name to be able to come up here. He did great things for this program, and I want to remember those things without all the bad stuff being brought up. I guess it will just take more time....it happened with Switzer, so maybe it can happen with Kelvin.

Elmo,

The reason that I brought up guys like Al and BBS is because they talked to Coach Sampson a heck of a lot more than the guy at the golf tournament. Why would you want KS to be a jerk to Al? Al is a good guy that cares about OU basketball....

I also have forgiven Switzer. He is doing great things for OU right now, and I hope that Kelvin and Billy will continue to be welcomed back by the admin and fans.

 

[Cheno]

I think Skyvue's original post was very good as well. He's right on many accounts. And that is the way he feels so how can that be wrong?

I, as you all know, would be lumped into the Sampson naysayer category. Not because he wasn't Billy Tubbs nor Barry Switzer. I actually first became an OU fan because of Kelvin Sampson. I respected how hard his teams played. Where I begun to take issue was with what I perceived as his lack of recruiting and his inability to teach offense. Then his "perceived" (may just be me) arrogance and me attitude began to wear on me and then the cheating and more importantly the response to the cheating drove me batty.
And then he did it all over again at IU.

But again, I've said it before, Sampson was a very good coach at OU and had some very good times...but I'm so happy Coach Capel is here and is doing things (especially in recruiting) that we were force fed to believe couldn't be done at a "football" school. That was hogwash. It just takes a little bit more work and a little bit more personality. Coach Capel has that.

 

[Tony]

This is neither here nor there, but can I say how much it sticks in my craw that so many in our local media have such a buddy-buddy relationship with coaches and people of importance at OU? It's nice as an OU fan -- usually -- but as someone who cares even a little bit about journalism it is really ridiculous.

 

[elmocarp]

This is neither here nor there, but can I say how much it sticks in my craw that so many in our local media have such a buddy-buddy relationship with coaches and people of importance at OU? It's nice as an OU fan -- usually -- but as someone who cares even a little bit about journalism it is really ridiculous.

This. This. This, this, this, this, this...

Add to it how totally and completely inept the media has been at giving the Thunder and quality coverage and it really gets tough to stomach...

 

[playmakr]

It was called weak because he didn't answer my question and is about to turn this into another pi$$ing match between the the same 6 posters.

A lot of posters in this thread didn't answer your question. They went off on tangents, which is fine. Sky spoke to some of those tangents, responding to posts in the thread, as threads will always evolve. It's not reasonable to think that a thread that will spur discussion is going to go exactly how you want it to go. One would have to have a fairly vivid imagination to think that there is a pissing match going on in this thread. It seems very civil to me, other than you're barbs with Elmo, which I took as simple banter with no harm.

You didn't answer the question either

I don't hold ill will towards him. His son owes me 10 dollars, but other than that we're cool.

I didn't originally answer the question because there is a certain poster that only posts not only on this board but on the other board as well in hopes of getting me to "take the bait." You see, he feels like I am stuck in the Sampson era, can't let it go, and other nonsense. He actually thinks that I hope Capel fails, I guess to somehow validate Sampson's tenure? My fiance would laugh at that and wonder why I dragged her to all of Capel's games the last three years. Capel would also laugh at that because he recruited me to Old Dominion when he was an assistant there and I almost went there because of him. He was very honest about his situation at ODU and let me know he may not be there very long, based on his Dad.

A couple years ago, for whatever reason, I responded to this poster strongly on the old board. Way too strongly, in fact. I let his pathetic digs at me and name-calling to get to me for some dumb reason. (it's just a message board) Ada can recall this event, because he countered with a strong message of his own in defense of this poster. I later apologized, but since then this particular poster has gone out of his way to try to bait me into another confrontation. Again, this is done on the football board as well. This poster used to make, and still does, signatures and references to me in nearly every post. Before Capel's first year, I thought with new staff and possibly new upbeat attitude (after the stale ending to Kelvin's tenure) that we would take the Big 12 by surprise and win a lot of games. We were close to being on track to that until we lost those home games down the stretch (Texas, KU, ATM, maybe another I don't remember) that were all very winnable. In fact, many of the game we lost were very, very winnable we just didn't have the depth and winning experience to close out games, despite Capel's tremendous effort. This poster felt that I was picking a high number of wins so that when we didn't reach it, I could say that Capel failed. Of course, I never said anything like that after the fact but that didn't keep this poster from openly suggesting that I want Capel to fail and for OU to fail. Again, my fiance would crack up at that.

I could re-hash what all went down with Kelvin because I may know a bit better than most what exactly happened with the NCAA and other situations, but there is no reason to. I don't hold ill will towards him, and hope he can find a situation where he can relax and just coach. Him leaving was great for OU.

 

[AdaSooner]

Kelvin didn't do anything to me personally, so there was never anything to forgive on my part. He did a great job as OU's head coach for 11 seasons. Anyone who can't say that is in denial.

Could he have done more? Absolutely! Sampson brought in good players and a few great ones during his time at OU. But Capel is proving he could have done a lot better job of recruiting by working the AAU circuit and catering to high school coaches, which IMO were two of KS's main weaknesses as a recruiter.

I was plenty upset when Kelvin left us in a mess three years ago, because no one supported and defended him with more heartfelt enthusiasm than yours truly. I'd challenge anyone to prove that statement wrong. Does that change what he accomplished in those eleven seasons? Of course not. Yet, there is no way to ignore the fact that what he did was wrong. I lost respect for him when he put our program in a tough spot with the NCAA, and he didn't help matters any when he repeated the offense at IU.

Forgiveness was never part of the equation. I'm glad God doesn't work that way or I would be in a heap of trouble.

 

[CobraKai]

I have never personally met Sampson, or Tubbs for that matter, but I had a good friend that worked in the alumni office and told me that most people that didn't know Tubbs hated him, but anyone who knew the guy loved him (like Switzer). He said Sampson was the exact opposite, i.e. strangers thought he was a really great guy, but people that worked alongside him every day were not too fond of him. Again, I'm not sure if that was true, that is just what I heard.