Kelvin will be bringing the number one team in the country to Norman

[MJSooner]

Kruger's tenure takes a deduction because of his last 5 seasons and the fact that he followed up his FF appearance with one of the worst seasons in OU basketball history.

Hyperbole much??

Three of the four coaches in All-Time Wins at OU had worse seasons than LK. The much respected Bruce Drake's last season at OU was 3-18. His predecessor was 4-19 the following year. Billy was 9-18 one year. Yeah, 2017 was bad, but more of an anomaly than the norm for Kruger and not the worst of times in OU basketball hisory.

And how did Kelvin follow up the FF once that team graduated? Oh, double-digit loss, an NIT bid, and getting swept by KU, Texas (3 times), and OSU, including blowout losses at GIA and a 66-37 loss at Texas. Yeah, losing 20 games is worse than making the NIT, but both years were embarrassing. Kelvin follows that year up by losing as a favorite the next two years in the Big XII and NCAA tourneys, including the loss to Wisconsin-Milwaukee. And, let's not forget, gets OU put on probation and quick to leave the first chance. Maybe a slight deduction and stain on his record, too??

Ultimately, as stated before, I liked Kelvin AND Kruger, and not sure why some in our fanbase can't be equally happy that we had both as coaches.

 

[skyvue]

Kruger's tenure takes a deduction because of his last 5 seasons and the fact that he followed up his FF appearance with one of the worst seasons in OU basketball history.

Measuring coaches isn't just about how good the good is. How bad the bad is matters too.

Interesting (but not surprising) that you so passionately hold the '17 season against Kruger but seemingly have no problem with Sampson first getting us on probation and worse, cutting and running after he did so. He did far more damage to the program than Kruger did.

But let's look at Kruger's final years. 2017 was indeed rough, but we made the Final 4 because we were a senior-laden team in '16. In hoops, the margin for error is very small. In '18, we went to the tourney and lost in OT to a higher seeded team. In '19, we went to the tourney and won a game and then lost to a #1 seed. In '20, we went 19-12, but missed the tourney. In '21, we made the tourney and again won a game but lost to a 1-seeded team. So we were in the tourney three out of five years, with two first-round wins and an OT loss, a 19-win non-tourney season and a lousy '17.

Now, let's look at Sampson's late years: 2002 and '03 were excellent seasons, like Kruger's '15 and '16 teams, In '04, we missed the tourney--we went to the NIT and lost in the first round. In '05, we were a 3 seed and took care of Niagara, a 14 seed, but lost to Utah, a six seed, in the second round. In '06, we made the tourney as a 6 seed and lost to an 11 seed in the opening round. Then we got put on probation, and Sampson cut bait and ran.

We'll never know what might have happened if he'd stayed two more years after his peak seasons, as Kruger did, but getting us on probation and then leaving--sorry, that's much worse than Kruger's final two seasons.

(Edit: MJ beat me to it and communicated it much more effectively than I did.)

 

[IndySooner]

Oh, plenty of fans were mad at Kelvin at least up until the Final Four year. After all, he committed the unpardonable sin of not being the second coming of Billy Tubbs. I spent many hours defending Sampson from his detractors before and after the phone calls situation. He lost me when, having put us on probation, he cut and ran on us. That's what made me angry. You make a mess like that, you stay to clean it up. That was a less than honorable--one might even say cowardly--action on his part.

But as I say, I was a staunch defender prior to that and it was a full-time job. MJSooner is correct: There's been a massive revision of history in the years since, but that's not surprising. It's pretty much human nature. But he caught all kinds of grief on Sooner boards for much of his time in Norman.

100%. And I was right there with you.

 

[CMSOONER]

Agree except I wasn’t too angry he left because it was to indiana

I was in this same boat. At that time, Indiana was still viewed as a step up and a job you wouldn't turn down. Sadly they too have fallen into mediocrity.

 

[SoonerDutch]

Interesting (but not surprising) that you so passionately hold the '17 season against Kruger but seemingly have no problem with Sampson first getting us on probation and worse, cutting and running after he did so. He did far more damage to the program than Kruger did.

But let's look at Kruger's final years. 2017 was indeed rough, but we made the Final 4 because we were a senior-laden team in '16. In hoops, the margin for error is very small. In '18, we went to the tourney and lost in OT to a higher seeded team. In '19, we went to the tourney and won a game and then lost to a #1 seed. In '20, we went 19-12, but missed the tourney. In '21, we made the tourney and again won a game but lost to a 1-seeded team. So we were in the tourney three out of five years, with two first-round wins and an OT loss, a 19-win non-tourney season and a lousy '17.

Now, let's look at Sampson's late years: 2002 and '03 were excellent seasons, like Kruger's '15 and '16 teams, In '04, we missed the tourney--we went to the NIT and lost in the first round. In '05, we were a 3 seed and took care of Niagara, a 14 seed, but lost to Utah, a six seed, in the second round. In '06, we made the tourney as a 6 seed and lost to an 11 seed in the opening round. Then we got put on probation, and Sampson cut bait and ran.

We'll never know what might have happened if he'd stayed two more years after his peak seasons, as Kruger did, but getting us on probation and then leaving--sorry, that's much worse than Kruger's final two seasons.

(Edit: MJ beat me to it and communicated it much more effectively than I did.)

I don’t have much to argue but would say OU would have probably made tournament in 2020 barring COVID. Pretty strong bubble but was really peaking (that TCU win right before COVID was great).

 

[WichitaSooner]

I don’t have much to argue but would say OU would have probably made tournament in 2020 barring COVID. Pretty strong bubble but was really peaking (that TCU win right before COVID was great).

Yea that win in Ft. Worth likely locked us. The Reaves game.

 

[skyvue]

I was in this same boat. At that time, Indiana was still viewed as a step up and a job you wouldn't turn down. Sadly they too have fallen into mediocrity.

I understood that argument then and I understand it now--but if you've made a mess of things, you have to fix that first. Then you can see what other opportunities might be available to you. As I stated, I defended him when his recruiting misdeeds were exposed--we all make mistakes and I know the pressures of recruiting are tough to handle. But once he got caught and put the school in a bad position, if he was a man of honor, he had to make it right. I was surprised and very disappointed when he chose to run away from a mess that was entirely of his making. I don't care what the job offer was. When you screw up, you've got to make it right. That's how my parents raised me and I'm confident Kelvin's raised him the same way. It was a weak and selfish action on his part.

That said, I moved on long ago (I know it doesn't sound like it, but I did), but I haven't changed how I feel about it. I'm guessing Kelvin, in retrospect, regrets his actions, but I've never heard him address the situation so I'm only guessing.

 

[skyvue]

I don’t have much to argue but would say OU would have probably made tournament in 2020 barring COVID. Pretty strong bubble but was really peaking (that TCU win right before COVID was great).

You're so right! I completely forgot about the cancellation of the tourney. I was scratching my head when I reviewed those season and saw we didn't make it--I was certain we had. And of course, we would have. Thanks for jogging my memory (and strengthening my argument).

 

[skyvue]

You're so right! I completely forgot about the cancellation of the tourney. I was scratching my head when I reviewed those five seasons that WT was ranting about and saw we didn't make it--I was certain we had. And of course, we would have, were it not for the pandemic. Thanks for jogging my memory (and strengthening my argument).

 

[paboomersooner]

I understood that argument then and I understand it now--but if you've made a mess of things, you have to fix that first. Then you can see what other opportunities might be available to you. As I stated, I defended him when his recruiting misdeeds were exposed--we all make mistakes and I know the pressures of recruiting are tough to handle. But once he got caught and put the school in a bad position, if he was a man of honor, he had to make it right. I was surprised and very disappointed when he chose to run away from a mess that was entirely of his making. I don't care what the job offer was. When you screw up, you've got to make it right. That's how my parents raised me and I'm confident Kelvin's raised him the same way. It was a weak and selfish action on his part.

That said, I moved on long ago (I know it doesn't sound like it, but I did), but I haven't changed how I feel about it. I'm guessing Kelvin, in retrospect, regrets his actions, but I've never heard him address the situation so I'm only guessing.

There are so many different angles one could look in regards as to why Sampson left. Maybe he cut and ran. Maybe the Indiana job was too much to turn down no matter the situation at the time at OU. The NCAA had more power back then so perhaps OU was subtly () showing Sampson the door for fear of more stringent sanctions. Perhaps the NCAA was, boldly or through back channels, encouraging OU to jettison Sampson or they would have looked at OU as being defiant and levied harsher penalties. But then why would IU hire him shortly thereafter? Or all could be true. Or none of it. It's all political man. It's all political. Birds are not real.

 

[WaymanFan]

Actually, there are lots of great posts and opinions in this thread. As fans, we will remember things just the way we WANT to remember them...human nature. Both Kelvin and Billy had their share of bad NCAAA Tournament losses. However, when you look at NCAA Tournament upsets on a yearly basis, you will find that schools who over-achieved during the regular season often fell short in March. I believe both Billy and Kelvin were outstanding coaches who often got the most out of their talent during the season - and sometimes that bit them in March. Billy's two best "coaching jobs" were 1984 and 1990...and didn't make it out of the first weekend...same with Kelvin in 1995 and 2000. I look at all four of those seasons as highly successful...but I'm not going to tell someone else they should feel the same way.

I believe both coaches burned out at OU (Billy explicitly said as much). It's very difficult for a coach at a school which isn't a blue blood to maintain greatness. Think Rick Barnes at Texas, Nolan Richardson at Arkansas, Bobby Cremins at Georgia Tech and Gary Williams at Maryland (lots more examples). All those coaches were eventually run out of town by their fan bases for not being able to sustain their peak accomplishments. I think you will soon find Virginia coach Tony Bennett on this same list. That is why I will choose to remember the great things Billy and Kelvin did for OU.

Lon Kruger was obviously a great coach as well. He won everywhere he went and stayed at OU longer than any other stop. Competition in the conference no doubt played a part in his overall record falling short of what Billy and Kelvin accomplished. That doesn't diminish what he accomplished, at least in my mind. As a fan base, I believe we were blessed to have these three coaches for as long as we did.

 

[WTSooner]

I understood that argument then and I understand it now--but if you've made a mess of things, you have to fix that first. Then you can see what other opportunities might be available to you. As I stated, I defended him when his recruiting misdeeds were exposed--we all make mistakes and I know the pressures of recruiting are tough to handle. But once he got caught and put the school in a bad position, if he was a man of honor, he had to make it right. I was surprised and very disappointed when he chose to run away from a mess that was entirely of his making. I don't care what the job offer was. When you screw up, you've got to make it right. That's how my parents raised me and I'm confident Kelvin's raised him the same way. It was a weak and selfish action on his part.

That said, I moved on long ago (I know it doesn't sound like it, but I did), but I haven't changed how I feel about it. I'm guessing Kelvin, in retrospect, regrets his actions, but I've never heard him address the situation so I'm only guessing.

Give me a break.

Kelvin left because Joe C. asked him to leave. The belief was that OU would get off lighter if Kelvin was no longer at OU.

The effects of the probation are also greatly exaggerated. It was a slap on the wrist, not something that had some profound, long-term effect on the program. What had a profound, long-term negative effect on the program was Capel being Capel.

 

[TEvans4Three]

lol

You say that as if getting bounced in the first round 8 out of 10 seasons wouldn't be a MASSIVE improvement over any 8 year stretch we've had since.

Matter of fact, we've only MADE the tournament NINE times since Kelvin left. NINE times in EIGHTEEN seasons (not counting this one).

So yeah, I crave the consistency that Kelvin put on the court, even if they weren't a team that excelled in the NCAA Tournament during much of his time on campus. Because we sure as heck haven't done even that well since.

Feel better? Good grief. I obviously started by counting this season, then since the season wasn't over, decided not to count it (said as much) and didn't update my seasons. I was off 1 year. That changes nothing. But good catch. I'm sure you went stat hunting to find something I missed and THAT is what you came up with.

Some of ya'll make this place unbearable.

You are actually 2 years off. Unbearable that you cite incorrect facts/stats? Nah.

It is 9 times in 16 seasons. You counted this year and the COVID year.

We would have been a tournament team in COVID, so that is 10 in 17 if you are counting.
The difference in success rate between 50% and 59% is pretty big.

3 years missed were Capel III
2 years missed were Kruger
2 years missed were Moser (Should have been in year 1, but I digress)

Sampson missed 1 year. Unclear how we got in in 1996. 1997 we got in bc we got a few in the Big12 tourney.

Here is the breakdown for those that like references:

Year	Coach	Record	KP OU Rank	SOS	Big12 Finish	Top25 Big12 teams	Tourney Seed	Tourney Result
1995​	Sampson	23-9 (9-5)	27​	48​	3	4​	4	L to Manhattan
1996​	Sampson	17-13 (8-6)	35​	52​	3	2​	10	L to Temple
1997​	Sampson	19-11 (9-7)	31​	83​	6	5​	11	L to Stanford
1998​	Sampson	22-11 (11-5)	54​	89​	2	1​	10	L to Indiana
1999​	Sampson	21-11 (11-5)	33​	91​	4	1​	13	W, W, L to Mich St.
2000​	Sampson	27-7 (12-4)	11​	70​	3	4​	3	W, L to Purdue
2001​	Sampson	26-7 (12-4)	21​	81​	3	2​	4	L to Indiana St.
2002​	Sampson	31-5 (13-3)	5​	26​	2	1​	2	W, W, W, W, L to Indiana
2003​	Sampson	27-7 (12-4)	9​	24​	3	3​	1	W, W, W, L to Syracuse
2004​	Sampson	20-11 (8-8)	56​	43​	7	3​	NIT	W, L to Michigan
2005​	Sampson	25-8 (12-4)	12​	34​	1	2​	3	W, L to Utah
2006​	Sampson	20-9 (11-5)	45​	60​	3	2​	6	L to Milwaukee
2007​	Capel III	16-15 (6-10)	58​	62​	9	3​
2008​	Capel III	23-12 (9-7)	44​	18​	4	3​	6	W, L to Louisville
2009​	Capel III	30-6 (13-3)	7​	29​	2	3​	2	W, W, W, L to N. Carolina
2010​	Capel III	13-18 (4-12)	104​	13​	10	6​
2011​	Capel III	14-18 (5-11)	144​	48​	10	2​
2012​	Kruger	15-16 (5-13)	105​	41​	8	4​
2013​	Kruger	20-12 (11-7)	51​	27​	4	2​	10	L to San Diego St.
2014​	Kruger	23-10 (12-6)	30​	20​	2	3​	5	L to N. Dakota St.
2015​	Kruger	24-11 (12-6)	11​	5​	2	6​	3	W, W, L to Mich St.
2016​	Kruger	29-8 (12-6)	10​	1​	3	5​	2	W, W, W, W, L to Villanova
2017​	Kruger	11-20 (5-13)	65​	2​	9	5​
2018​	Kruger	18-14 (8-10)	48​	5​	6	4​	10	L to Rhode Island
2019​	Kruger	20-14 (7-11)	32​	3​	7	5​	9	W, L to Virginia
2020​	Kruger	19-12 (9-9)	36​	5​	3	4​	covid	covid
2021​	Kruger	16-11 (9-8)	39​	43​	6	3​	8	W, L to Gonzaga
2022​	Moser	19-16 (7-11)	30​	7​	7	4​	NIT	W, L to St. Bonaventure
2023​	Moser	15-17 (5-13)	54​	2​	9	6​
2024​	Moser	19-8 (7-7)	36​	67​	9 (current)	6​

 

[CoachTalk]

Feel better? Good grief. I obviously started by counting this season, then since the season wasn't over, decided not to count it (said as much) and didn't update my seasons. I was off 1 year. That changes nothing. But good catch. I'm sure you went stat hunting to find something I missed and THAT is what you came up with.

Some of ya'll make this place unbearable.

Will you leave again?

 

[WTSooner]

Will you leave again?

Funny story about how little I think of you.

2022. Sometime between Thanksgiving and Christmas. I was eating at Jersey Mike's in Tulsa Hills. You and the wife strolled in. Sat at the table directly in front of me. I didn't say a word or introduce myself because, well, you are you.

I'll be gone soon enough, when I'm ready to be gone. In the meantime, you don't like something I say feel free to ignore it and move on.

 

[WTSooner]

You are actually 2 years off. Unbearable that you cite incorrect facts/stats? Nah.

It is 9 times in 16 seasons. You counted this year and the COVID year.

I mean.....that doesn't really change my point. Like, at all.

Changes the math a bit is all. I mean to include the COVID year. Meant to include it as a miss. Just I was going to mention it in an asterisk, just didn't get around to it.

You want to pull that year out. Fine. I chose not to.

Feel free to get caught up with 1 or 2 years, and 9% failure rate difference. I wouldn't want to argue the facts either, but you've never really known what this conversation was about anyways (thought you were leaving this discussion?), so I'm not surprised.

If you are happy/content with Moser, pat yourself on the back and move on. I'm not, many others are not, and Joe C. probably isn't. Regardless of what happens the rest of the year, I hope Moser is either fired or moves on. He isn't the guy to lead this program to where most of us want it to be. I'm certain of that. And at the end of the day, THAT is the point I'm trying to make.

 

[IndySooner]

If you are happy/content with Moser, pat yourself on the back and move on. I'm not, many others are not, and Joe C. probably isn't. Regardless of what happens the rest of the year, I hope Moser is either fired or moves on. He isn't the guy to lead this program to where most of us want it to be. I'm certain of that. And at the end of the day, THAT is the point I'm trying to make.

I can tell you with 99% certainty (it was 100% certain in January) that Joe C. is more than happy with what Moser is building. Probably more importantly, some money guys behind OU basketball are definitely happy with what Porter is building. Their concern is more that we haven't gotten the financial and fan support we need to keep him - as well as the buy in from the Norman community as a whole.

 

[Sooner04]

Sampson missed 1 year. Unclear how we got in in 1996. 1997 we got in bc we got a few in the Big12 tourney.

1996 was simple: we finished third in the Big 8 at 8-6. Back then, that was a mortal lock. Lost to Missouri and Derek Grimm in the first round in KC. Erdmann hit a big trey to force OT from the top of the key if memory serves.

1997: hot in KC. Beat Chauncey Billups and Colorado (the 2-seed) to push us through. Lost to that bastard Jason Southerland (sp) and Mizzou who was, I believe, a 10-seed!

I'll have much more to add to this topic later. We should never sell short Sampson making the tourney all but one year, and the one year he missed (2004) we still went .500 in the league. Gave a pretty good Texas team (LaMarcus Aldridge....maybe? Daniel Gibson....I think?) all they wanted in Dallas. Led the whole way but bled out.

I also think we should never sell short just how good a job Lon did in 2012. In turn, I'll never forget the conflagration of Tokyo, otherwise known as the 2017 season.

 

[SoonerBounce13]

Funny story about how little I think of you.

2022. Sometime between Thanksgiving and Christmas. I was eating at Jersey Mike's in Tulsa Hills. You and the wife strolled in. Sat at the table directly in front of me. I didn't say a word or introduce myself because, well, you are you.

I'll be gone soon enough, when I'm ready to be gone. In the meantime, you don't like something I say feel free to ignore it and move on.

lol I think that little story shows more about you than it does coach

 

[MJSooner]

I can tell you with 99% certainty (it was 100% certain in January) that Joe C. is more than happy with what Moser is building. Probably more importantly, some money guys behind OU basketball are definitely happy with what Porter is building. Their concern is more that we haven't gotten the financial and fan support we need to keep him - as well as the buy in from the Norman community as a whole.

I agree. A team/program with no discipline or public embarrassment issues, improved attendance (after this week, 6 of the last 7 home games sold out), student excitement at games, really good recruiting, national ranking most of the year, and a practical lock to return to the NCAA tourney.

Why would there be any consideration to fire him or be concerned about what he is building? Is that not better than the previous two years and moving forward?

The things that would cause Joe some concern are things Moser cannot control- BMDs contributions, arena certainty, or city of Norman support. Honestly? Those fall more on the back and blame of Joe C and Joe H. But with the focus so high on football, maybe they've not spent the time or focus drumming up basketball support as is needed.

Is Moser without faults? No. Does he still need to improve? Yes. Is it possible for PM (or any coach willing to set roots in Norman) to meet the expectations of some of our fans? I'm not sure. Doubtfully. But does Moser's job performance after this season put his job in jeopardy? Absolutely not.