Have you forgiven Kelvin Sampson?

[playmakr]

You'd have been better off bringing up Tubbs like you did in your most recent post.

Some people have the maturity and honor to not badmouth former coaches on a consistent basis.

Disclaimer: Nonspecific post

 

[SoonerfanTU]

Bill Self also has a stellar NCAA tourney record, a national championship and more championship trophies in the last decade than years in that decade.
You are right....every coach has some bad 1st round losses but not more 1st round losses than wins at a program the caliber of OU over a more than a decade. In fact, I challenge you to name a coach at a school near the quality of Oklahoma with more 1st round losses than wins over such a long period of time. We're talking 11 seasons so that's a big sample size.
But again to bring Self up is silly considering his track record in both winning conference championships and in the Big Dance. All the guy does is win.
You'd have been better off bringing up Tubbs like you did in your most recent post.

You can't compare the two in that way. KU is a much greater program than OU. There will never be a way to fairly compare Kelvin and Self. I've admitted several times that Self gets the nod now b/c of the NC. But I also believe that had Kelvin stayed at IU, he'd have gotten one. Maybe the only year he was there.

And you keep talking about the caliber of program OU is. OU wasn't on the level we are now back when Kelvin took over. Too many bad years at the end of Billy's tenure. Kelvin brought the OU program up to the level it was at when he left, he didn't maintain what Billy left him. Billy had a couple of great years, but he didn't build a consistent program.

So to take Kelvin's first years at OU, and try to say that he should have been winning NCAA games is ludicrous. There was ALOT of rebuilding to do, and not alot of winning to look back on in the years just prior to him taking over.

 

[NMSooner'80]

A lot of people conveniently forget that OU was picked last in the Big 8 in Kelvin's first year, in most magazines that I saw. Both Billy and Kelvin pulled off surprises when picked last (Tubbs in '81-82, Kelvin in his first year, 1994-95).

Also, I'm not even sure that losing to Manhattan was an upset, in terms of talent. That OU team overachieved just to get a Top 16 seed. Remember, we were coming off a 15-13 season and had lost Jeff Webster and Bryatt Vann to graduation.

 

[skyvue]

Also, I'm not even sure that losing to Manhattan was an upset, in terms of talent.

I'll say this much: I was very worried about that game at the time.

It's funny, many of the same people who love the tourney precisely because it boasts multiple upsets each year think somehow our coaches/teams should avoid ever losing to a lower seed.

 

[playmakr]

I'll say this much: I was very worried about that game at the time.

It's funny, many of the same people who love the tourney precisely because it boasts multiple upsets each year think somehow our coaches/teams should avoid ever losing to a lower seed.

Don't listen to the C crowd. They are more interested in being right than putting OU in a positive light.

 

[Sid]

But again to bring Self up is silly considering his track record in both winning conference championships and in the Big Dance. All the guy does is win.

For any reasonable person that has any COMMON SENSE at all, 11-11, 12-13 and 5-6 is indefensible. Even if you’re the type of person that wears gray shades, those are still lunch pail numbers.

:kelvin

1995 - 1996 - 1997 - 1998 - 2001 - 2006

11/11 - 5/6 -12/13

 

[playmakr]

Anybody that isn't carrying a grudge would have forgiven Sampson by now. Afterall, it's been 4 long years since he left. There are some in the crowd that deem it necessary to lift themselves up by putting others down. There are some that will never be happy. We are only talking about a select few.

The rest of us have moved on, in fact we moved on the day Capel was hired. We don't feel the need to live in the past, and we feel Capel is able to stand on his own two feet. Certainly, Capel wouldn't want us outwardly doing what we can to bemoan previous losses or bad seasons. Jeff doesn't consume himself with such thoughts, he knows they are irrelevant to his current team and knows that if we wins, the fans will love him. Hopefully he didn't notice those that questioned his hire, and hopefully he didn't take too much offense when the C crowd was jumping ship down the stretch last year. He knows that fans can be fickle. He knows that fans demand too much of college athletes. He knows that those same fans who demand too much of college athletes are the one's holding the clipboard in the church/rec league. Jeff doesn't listen to the crowd. He and Stoops are disgusted by the crowd, and he and his team don't listen to the crowd.



Darby Rich, who Blake Griffin singled out as one of the key reasons he is where he is, doesn't listen to the crowd. .

 

[skyvue]

For any reasonable person that has any COMMON SENSE at all, 11-11, 12-13 and 5-6 is indefensible.

One can pick and choose numbers to portray Sampson's tenure in Norman negatively or positively.

It's easy to counter that any reasonable person who has any COMMON SENSE at all would have to agree that a coach who compiled the best winning percentage in the history of his school, who won National Coach of the Year awards in two separate seasons, who won mutilple conference tourneys, who finished 3rd or higher in his conference 10 out of 12 seasons, who never once missed postseason play and was in the Big Dance 11 out of 12 seasons was doing an awful lot right.

Literally hundreds of other programs would be thrilled with the above achievements from one coach, especially if you throw in a Sweet 16, an Elite Eight appearance, and a trip to the Final Four.

Now, the fact that hundreds of other programs would be thrilled with Sampson's level of success doesn't mean that we must necessarily be satisfied. Heck, no -- there's always room for improvement, and I'm hoping that Jeff Capel's just the guy to take us to the next level.

But neither does being not being satisfied mean it's reasonable to excoriate the previous coach and downplay or ignore his accomplishments.

If one focuses strictly on NCAA tourney results, there's no denying that Sampson experienced limited success (though, as has been pointed out above, some of those supposedly "indefensible" losses appear not all that egregious when examined more closely), but then I tend to have little respect for any sports fans who focuses so intently on the postseason that he or she ignores a program's/team's/coach's other successes.

The Braves didn't win many World Series during their long streak of postseason appearances (just one, I think), but any baseball fan who can't tip his or her hat to their 14 straight seasons in the playoffs (I think I have that number correct) is being short-sighted, in my view, and can't see the forest for the trees (and I speak as a Mets fan who has no love for the Braves).

 

[Cheno]

Great post Skyvue!

 

[SoonerfanTU]

Very well said, Sky.

 

[sybarite]

Following is the Mission Statement of the NCAA. Your interpretation must be different from mine because I don't see the conflict which you apparently do.

Our Mission

Core Ideology
The NCAA's core ideology consists of two notions: core purpose - the organization's reason for being - and core values - essential and enduring principles that guide an organization.

Core Purpose
Our purpose is to govern competition in a fair, safe, equitable and sportsmanlike manner, and to integrate intercollegiate athletics into higher education so that the educational experience of the student-athlete is paramount.

Core Values
The Association - through its member institutions, conferences and national office staff - shares a belief in and commitment to:

•The collegiate model of athletics in which students participate as an avocation, balancing their academic, social and athletics experiences.

•The highest levels of integrity and sportsmanship.

•The pursuit of excellence in both academics and athletics.

•The supporting role that intercollegiate athletics plays in the higher education mission and in enhancing the sense of community and strengthening the identity of member institutions.

•An inclusive culture that fosters equitable participation for student-athletes and career opportunities for coaches and administrators from diverse backgrounds.

•Respect for institutional autonomy and philosophical differences.

•Presidential leadership of intercollegiate athletics at the campus, conference and national levels.

Perhaps you can explain how the NCAA has taken steps since its inception to accomplish the highlighted goals. Perhaps you can explain how limiting the number of students who receive scholarships contributes to the accomplishment of these goals. Perhaps you can provide some evidence that the NCAA has ever assessed a penalty, probation, or death penalty for the failure to achieve one of the highlighted goals.

The same site that you cited with the mission statement provides a history of the NCAA. Perhaps you can show me where the NCAA was established with the protection of academia or the academic achievement of the student in mind.

You seem to be attempting to state that the NCAA has never had the goal of protecting the student/athlete, something that they have always claimed. If that were to be true, it does not change the discussion. It would simply suggest that an organization that seeks to limit that number of scholarships provided to potential athletes should be itself banned.

Where is that academic emphasis for the student? Where has it been anything other than an organization intent on controlling the financial industry of college sports?

 

[Sid]

Literally hundreds of other programs would be thrilled with the above achievements from one coach, especially if you throw in a Sweet 16, an Elite Eight appearance, and a trip to the Final Four.

I'm sure there are plenty of schools like Tulsa that would be thrilled to have a coach like KS, but Oklahoma is not Tulsa. Kelvin's overall record at OU would not be acceptable at schools like NC, Duke, Kansas, UCLA etc. And don't give me this CRAP that Oklahoma DOESN'T belong or CAN'T belong in the same sentence as those schools.

When Jeff first took over as the head coach, he talked about raising the expectation level of the basketball program. Unlike Kelvin, just getting into the DANCE is not satisfactory for Jeff. He wants to build a program at OU where he has a LEGITIMATE chance of making some noise in the tournament every year. In order to do that, you have to to recruit players that are talented enough to get you past the first round on a consistent basis. Kelvin couldn't do that at OU and that's why he ended up with a 5/6 first round record. A coach with an 11/11, 5/6, 12/13 record does not deserve to have a court named after him. That is not the record of a GREAT coach. Unless you play baseball, it's the record of an AVERAGE coach.

I'm hoping that Jeff Capel's just the guy to take us to the next level.

Instead of HOPING it will happen, you need to change your attitude and EXPECT it to happen. I EXPECT Jeff to take the program to the next level. I EXPECT the Oklahoma basketball program to be mentioned in the same breath as UCLA, NC, Duke and Kansas. I EXPECT Jeff to pound the AAU circuit and compete with the Big Boys for talent. I EXPECT Jeff to win us a NC.

If one focuses strictly on NCAA tourney results, there's no denying that Sampson experienced limited success (though, as has been pointed out above, some of those supposedly "indefensible" losses appear not all that egregious when examined more closely), but then I tend to have little respect for any sports fans who focuses so intently on the postseason that he or she ignores a program's/team's/coach's other successes.

Then you need to become a Tulsa Golden Hurricane fan. Whether you realize it or not, (maybe you're naive) college sports is a professional business now. Just like in professional sports, universities charge their fans a personal seat license or as the OU athletic department prefers to call it a DONATION. Coaches become MULTIMILLIONAIRES because of what they can do in the postseason. A coach’s legacy is determined by what he/she does in the postseason. It's time for OU basketball fans like yourself to get rid of the inferiority complex and start acting more like KU fans instead of Tulsa fans.

 

[skyvue]

I don't have an inferiority complex, but you clearly have a superiority complex. We are so far from being mentioned in the same breath as UCLA, NC, Duke, and Kansas that it's almost laughable. We're definitely a top 30 program -- I would say even a Top 20 program -- but it's a huge leap to become a historic Top 5 program, which is what you're demanding.

Can it happen? Sure -- anything can happen. But if that's the only level of success you're prepared to accept, then I guess we can start counting the days until you turn on Coach Capel and start trashing him as you do Sampson. Maybe we could even start a pool and place bets on when you do your about-face.

Because Coach Capel could have a great career at OU -- he could turn out to be the best hoops coach we've ever had -- and still not put us at the level of the programs you're citing. Florida won consecutive national titles, for pete's sake, and they're still not mentioned in the same breath as those programs -- not even close.

So keep huffing and puffing and ranting and raving if you like, all the while ignoring the regular season. I'll be the one who's enjoying the ride and appreciating every win along the way while celebrating the fact that it's still college hoops, not the NBA, and that, for all the big money involved, there's still a big difference between the two.

 

[SoonerNorm]

Perhaps you can explain how the NCAA has taken steps since its inception to accomplish the highlighted goals. Perhaps you can explain how limiting the number of students who receive scholarships contributes to the accomplishment of these goals. Perhaps you can provide some evidence that the NCAA has ever assessed a penalty, probation, or death penalty for the failure to achieve one of the highlighted goals.

The same site that you cited with the mission statement provides a history of the NCAA. Perhaps you can show me where the NCAA was established with the protection of academia or the academic achievement of the student in mind.

You seem to be attempting to state that the NCAA has never had the goal of protecting the student/athlete, something that they have always claimed. If that were to be true, it does not change the discussion. It would simply suggest that an organization that seeks to limit that number of scholarships provided to potential athletes should be itself banned.

Where is that academic emphasis for the student? Where has it been anything other than an organization intent on controlling the financial industry of college sports?

Syb, I could explain it to you but you wouldn't believe it so it would just be a waste of time. Time to move on.

 

[Mr.B!!!]

For my first post ever on possibly my favorite internet site, I felt compelled to remind you what made Sampson so special.

If you recall, Billy had started to slip a little and Eddie Sutton was using Leonard Hamilton recruits to beat us. Kelvin came along and kept that series competitive against a HOF coach. More importantly, he was the equivalent of a human "middle finger" to all of the oSu fans who felt that it was their god-given right to get to be the "basketball school" in the state. He had a way of getting under the skin of the average oSu fan that nobody else has been able to do before or since.

Think of this, he had moved on to IU but still had to answer to NCAA about what happened at OU. He didn't use that opportunity to distance himself from OU, or even be the "bigger man". Nope. He called out Eddie and Sean as being whiny little girls that cried to the NCAA becuase OU was beating them too regularly. Fact is, it was the truth and he said it on the record. For that, I'll always have a soft-spot in my heart for Kelvin. :clap:kelvin

 

[Sid]

I don't have an inferiority complex, but you clearly have a superiority complex. We are so far from being mentioned in the same breath as UCLA, NC, Duke, and Kansas that it's almost laughable. We're definitely a top 30 program -- I would say even a Top 20 program -- but it's a huge leap to become a historic Top 5 program, which is what you're demanding.

So keep huffing and puffing and ranting and raving if you like, all the while ignoring the regular season. I'll be the one who's enjoying the ride and appreciating every win along the way while celebrating the fact that it's still college hoops, not the NBA, and that, for all the big money involved, there's still a big difference between the two.

I rest my case. Welcome to the SQ club. As PH would say, now you know the rest of the story. I'm glad our coach doesn't share your mediocre attitude. Now I understand why KS became so comfortable at OU. All he had to do was go 5/6, 11/11 and the SQ crowd was happy. In honor of the SQ crowd, I would like to shout Go Tulsa!

 

[Cheno]

I don't think it's realistic that OU can become a top 5 basketball school...if so it would take many, many years. It just does to build history.
That being said...I want a coach that believes and strives for OU to become a top 5 program. A guy that thinks he can beat Duke, UNC, etc for recruits. A guy that HAS beat those top programs for top recruits. A guy that is a relentless worker to achieve the success of a top 5 program.
Coach Capel is a guy like that. Coach Sampson, despite is 20 wins seasons, was not. That's the difference in my opinion. Coach Capel doesn't have any pre-conceived notions on what the ceiling is at OU. He's trying to bust thru it. And he already has started. I believe Blake, WW, Tiny & Run TMG are proofs of that.

 

[Sid]

I believe Blake, WW, Tiny & Run TMG are proofs of that.

Absolutely!

 

[SoonerfanTU]

Coach Capel is a guy like that. Coach Sampson, despite is 20 wins seasons, was not.

Nonsense.

Sampson wasn't that coach 15 years ago, but he was recruiting at a very high level his last 5 or so years at OU, and his year at IU. To me, there is no difference between bringing in a guy like WW, and a guy like Hollis. Or bringing in a guy like Ace or Najera, vs a guy like Tiny. Had some of Kelvin's JUCO's been ranked the same way that HS kids get ranked, they'd have been on the level of Tiny and TMG. Guys like Ere, and Ace, and Brown.....those were some HIGHLY sought after recruits. This board begged for OU to be better at recruiting HS kids so they'd be around, and learn the system, but all of our talented HS kids are going pro after two years. Same as a JUCO. Here two years and gone. So if the JUCO's you are recruiting are good, your in the same boat.

And as for Sid, you are a joke my friend. Sky says OU is a long ways from being Duke/NC, and you call him SQ. Cheno says the same thing, and you ignore his comment. Fact is ALL OU fans want the program to reach that level. I'd imagine we all think it is possible. That said, it is going to take a great coach spending a decade here to even get us in the conversation. Heck, how many championships do those schools have? Even if OU wins 3 over the next 10 years, we'd still be behind the 8-ball in that discussion.

 

[skyvue]

Even if OU wins 3 over the next 10 years, we'd still be behind the 8-ball in that discussion.

Ding! Ding! Ding! Florida won two in a row, and they're not in that discussion.

You can strut around with your chest puffed out all you like, Sid, but in doing so, you come off like an aggie football fan who believes the hype that coaches like Les Miles dish out, believing that they deserve to be thought of as a top-drawer football power long before they've earned it.

Try visiting the sites of the schools you've repeatedly cited and telling them we're on the verge of reaching their level. They'll laugh you off their boards. Not because Capel's not a terrific coach, but because that kind of jump in status doesn't happen quickly. It requires prolonged success of the highest order.

I take a back seat to no one in standing up for Sooner hoops, and if you don't know that, you've either not been around that long or you haven't been paying attention. I've already stated that I consider us a Top 20 program, but it's just not that easy to make the jump to the top echelon, in any sport.

It's as if fans of, say, Virginia Tech or Maryland football started blustering about how their new coach was going to quickly put them on the same level as OU, Alabama, or USC. Sorry, but that would be as laughable as what you're spewing. One doesn't reach that level with just a title or two (or three, as TU has stated). History matters. Succeeding over a long period of time matters. If we win at least one title in each of the next three decades, then maybe we can start talking about being a top echelon program. A title or two doesn't do it -- just ask Florida. You have to be good -- really good -- for decades to reach that level, and if you start demanding that kind of respect before you've earned it, you just come off looking delusional.

Look at UConn -- as good as they've been for the past couple of decades -- still aren't listed as one of the top programs in the same way that Duke, UNC, and UCLA.

Coach Capel is doing a great job, and I couldn't be happier that we have him, but he's not a miracle worker. No one is. You can't erase or ignore the time element that goes into being a top-echelon program in any sport. History matters.