Have you forgiven Kelvin Sampson?

[SoonerNorm]

Whether anyone considers Florida a top tier school or not, when they are beating the top tier teams and taking home national championships, that's all that matters. Winning national championships is the goal, and when a team has two to their credit, they have proven all they need to prove during those years. I could care less about where someone ranks our program as long as we are kicking their rears and bringing home NC trophies. The program ranking will take care of itself if you have a few NC banners hanging from the rafters.

 

[playmakr]

Don't let the C crowd bother you, skyvue.

 

[Sid]

Sampson wasn't that coach 15 years ago, but he was recruiting at a very high level his last 5 or so years at OU, and his year at IU. To me, there is no difference between bringing in a guy like WW, and a guy like Hollis. Or bringing in a guy like Ace or Najera, vs a guy like Tiny. Had some of Kelvin's JUCO's been ranked the same way that HS kids get ranked, they'd have been on the level of Tiny and TMG. Guys like Ere, and Ace, and Brown.....those were some HIGHLY sought after recruits. This board begged for OU to be better at recruiting HS kids so they'd be around, and learn the system, but all of our talented HS kids are going pro after two years. Same as a JUCO. Here two years and gone. So if the JUCO's you are recruiting are good, your in the same boat.

:ez-laugh: Status Quo! Keep digging. This is too easy.

Fact is ALL OU fans want the program to reach that level. I'd imagine we all think it is possible. That said, it is going to take a great coach spending a decade here to even get us in the conversation. Heck, how many championships do those schools have? Even if OU wins 3 over the next 10 years, we'd still be behind the 8-ball in that discussion.

The fact is you and the rest of your Status Quo buddies would have been perfectly happy if Kelvin had remained at OU for another 11 years. The fear of loss is greater than the desire for gain.

 

[Sooner23]

 

[Sid]

Whether anyone considers Florida a top tier school or not, when they are beating the top tier teams and taking home national championships, that's all that matters. Winning national championships is the goal, and when a team has two to their credit, they have proven all they need to prove during those years. I could care less about where someone ranks our program as long as we are kicking their rears and bringing home NC trophies. The program ranking will take care of itself if you have a few NC banners hanging from the rafters.

Nice post. Don't get sucked into their diversionary tactics. Anybody who thinks 11/11, 5/6, and 12/13 is a good record will do anything to change the topic. When people realize they are on the wrong side of an argument they start dishing out all kinds of nonsense. Let them keep digging their hole. It's normal. Get used to it. :ez-laugh:

 

[BigTime]

For my first post ever on possibly my favorite internet site, I felt compelled to remind you what made Sampson so special.

If you recall, Billy had started to slip a little and Eddie Sutton was using Leonard Hamilton recruits to beat us. Kelvin came along and kept that series competitive against a HOF coach. More importantly, he was the equivalent of a human "middle finger" to all of the oSu fans who felt that it was their god-given right to get to be the "basketball school" in the state. He had a way of getting under the skin of the average oSu fan that nobody else has been able to do before or since.

Think of this, he had moved on to IU but still had to answer to NCAA about what happened at OU. He didn't use that opportunity to distance himself from OU, or even be the "bigger man". Nope. He called out Eddie and Sean as being whiny little girls that cried to the NCAA becuase OU was beating them too regularly. Fact is, it was the truth and he said it on the record. For that, I'll always have a soft-spot in my heart for Kelvin. :clap:kelvin

Mr. B,

Glad you enjoy the site, and nice to see you make your first post. Hope you start posting regularly. I agree with your second paragraph. It is obvious that Kelvin is still a Sooner at heart, and for that, I can't help but smile. :kelvin

This thread has actually turned out better than I expected. There are still the same small handful of people that say the same things in every Kelvin thread, but overall, we got some good orginal opinions and thoughts. I am going to tally up the results of the question asked here in day or two.

 

[Cheno]

Sampson wasn't that coach 15 years ago, but he was recruiting at a very high level his last 5 or so years at OU, and his year at IU.

Then your idea of a "very high level" and mine are totally different. Blake Griffin is a very high level. WW is a very high level. Two MCDAA's in one year is a very high level. I think you are confusing a "very high level" under Sampson and a true "very high level".
And this higher level of recruiting you are talking about all came with a steep price for OU, IU and ultimately Sampson who's out of coaching because of it.

 

[skyvue]

When people realize they are on the wrong side of an argument they start dishing out all kinds of nonsense.

No, when people realize they're losing an argument, they start loudly and repeatedly pronouncing that they've won the argument (a truly winning argument doesn't need to be touted as such) and insulting and ridiculing those who disagree with them while mischaracterizing and distorting their responses.

And they generally throw in a laughing smiley face or two to boot.

The difference between you and us is that we've acknowledged that Sampson wasn't perfect, that his tourney record was lacking. You keep pretending posters are defending his tourney record, but no one is, not really.

You're far more anti-Sampson than you are pro-Capel or pro-OU, and your vitriol shows in every single post you make. You're not responding to the substance of anyone's counter arguments -- in fact, you seem unable to. You just continue to cite the same two or three stats that you're convinced support your stance even as you ignore everything else that's presented.

 

[Sid]

No, when people realize they're losing an argument, they start loudly and repeatedly pronouncing that they've won the argument (a truly winning argument doesn't need to be touted as such) and insulting and ridiculing those who disagree with them while mischaracterizing and distorting their responses.

And they generally throw in a laughing smiley face or two to boot.

The difference between you and us is that we've acknowledged that Sampson wasn't perfect, that his tourney record was lacking. You keep pretending posters are defending his tourney record, but no one is, not really.

You're far more anti-Sampson than you are pro-Capel or pro-OU, and your vitriol shows in every single post you make. You're not responding to the substance of anyone's counter arguments -- in fact, you seem unable to. You just continue to cite the same two or three stats that you're convinced support your stance even as you ignore everything else that's presented.

Was there ever a "Have you forgiven Switzer?" thread on an OU football board? I seriously doubt it.

The truth is, Sampson's only unforgivable sin was not being the second coming of Billy Tubbs

Literally hundreds of other programs would be thrilled with the above achievements from one coach, especially if you throw in a Sweet 16, an Elite Eight appearance, and a trip to the Final Four.

Ding! Ding! Ding! Florida won two in a row, and they're not in that discussion.

I don't have an inferiority complex, but you clearly have a superiority complex.

It's funny, many of the same people who love the tourney precisely because it boasts multiple upsets each year think somehow our coaches/teams should avoid ever losing to a lower seed.

If one focuses strictly on NCAA tourney results, there's no denying that Sampson experienced limited success (though, as has been pointed out above, some of those supposedly "indefensible" losses appear not all that egregious when examined more closely), but then I tend to have little respect for any sports fans who focuses so intently on the postseason that he or she ignores a program's/team's/coach's other successes.

I'll be the one who's enjoying the ride and appreciating every win along the way while celebrating the fact that it's still college hoops, not the NBA, and that, for all the big money involved, there's still a big difference between the two.

The Braves didn't win many World Series during their long streak of postseason appearances (just one, I think)

These are my 3 favorite quotes.

he has the best winning percentage in the history of Sooners hoops.

There are always grey areas.

You're wrong. He went 11-11.

Those comments are very telling and typical of a SQ mentality. Admit it! You were completely happy with the Status Quo. If Kelvin had signed a new 11 year contract to remain at OU instead of going off to Indiana, you would have been content with that. You just need to change your attitude and expect more from the basketball program. Go Tulsa!

 

[NickZepp]

These are my 3 favorite quotes.





Those comments are very telling and typical of a SQ mentality. Admit it! You were completely happy with the Status Quo. If Kelvin had signed a new 11 year contract to remain at OU instead of going off to Indiana, you would have been content with that. You just need to change your attitude and expect more from the basketball program. Go Tulsa!

We won 3 Big 12 titles, went to a final four, elite eight sweet 16, won 279 games in about 12 years. Billy won about 330 in about 14 or 15 years.

You basically hate Kelvin because he didn't score 90 a game. He only averaged about 75 a game. Look I won't rip Capel because he's a good coach and is taking us the right direction but Cape's 3 seasons have had 71 a game and I expect that average to increase but probably to about where Sampson had took us. 75 a game after about 10 years. There will be years where we score about 80 a game and years where we only score about 70 or even less a game. It happens.

We are lucky at OU to have 3 straight really solid coaches. All of them should be hall of famers when they are done. That's something Oklahoma State has never had, Kansas State has never had, those 2 have similar basketball resumes to Oklahoma. Missouri has never had 3 straight solid coaches either. Texas hasn't.

 

[SoonerNorm]

While I agree with many of the opinions already expressed; to me, to sum up the biggest problem with Kelvin was recruiting, or lack thereof. I don't think Kelvin liked recruiting. I don't think he wanted to spend any effort going after elite players that KU, Duke, UNC, etc were going after. I don't think he actually believed he could recruit those kinds of players to a football school. I think he was satisfied going after hard-nosed kids who had some talent that would buy into his system and play extremely hard.

The one quote we hear that I hate is "he got more out of his players than anyone". What that means is, if he had better players he would be a regular in the final four. That brings us right back to recruiting. The only person responsible for the players he put on the court was Kelvin. Some were very good college players but most were role players. Very few elite players. Contrast that with what Jeff has done in a short time.

Now, to give credit where credit is due and many of us have said this before, the guy could coach defense. No question. I would give him a 9.5 for coaching defense. I loved to see our guys right in the face of opponents and making their life miserable. A Kelvin coached team was going to battle to the end and all opposing coaches knew it. On offense I couldn't give him more than a 6, but I will say that if he had better players, he would likely have run a more potent offense. I would give him about a 6 also for recruiting. He lost some games in which we had the most talent but most of his losses resulted from us being out-gunned.

I don't know if Jeff's teams will ever play defense as well as Kelvin's did. We should know the answer to that in a couple of years but one thing we already know is, Jeff isn't backing down from the Coach K's, Bill Self's, or Roy Williams's of the world on the recruiting trail. He wants those same kids those guys are recruiting as he knows if he has the talent, the wins will follow. So far, he has done pretty well. The more players we send to the league, the easier it will be to sign top 25 players.

Kelvin was a very good coach. He won a lot of games. His tourney record wasn't that great as most will admit. Some didn't like him personally. Some did. But, if we really want to put personalities aside, I think if Kelvin would have been a better recruiter and stayed off the phone, he would have had more wins to his credit and more tourney hardware in the trophy case. JMHO

 

[Seymore Cox]

Yall are serious for real about this one.

 

[NMSooner'80]

I'm still confused about why Sid keeps bringing up Tulsa. Not only did I not go to TU (I graduated from OU in May of '80), I never lived in the part of the state where one was expected to be a Tulsa fan.

IMHO, this "debate" still has more to do with those who hated Kelvin for "not being like Tubbs" than anything else.

And, if OU had played one of Kelvin's two Indiana teams, I'd have wanted Capel's team to beat them like a drum. The loyalty is to OU, not to a coach! I also still wonder if "some" people would have rooted for TCU or Lamar, when Billy coached at those places, if he had played against OU.

 

[Cheno]

Norm fantastic post and I pretty much agree with everything you said. It was spot on.

The one quote we hear that I hate is "he got more out of his players than anyone". What that means is, if he had better players he would be a regular in the final four. That brings us right back to recruiting. The only person responsible for the players he put on the court was Kelvin. Some were very good college players but most were role players. Very few elite players. Contrast that with what Jeff has done in a short time.

This is totally what I feel. I hate the comment "he got more out of his players than anyone" thats hogwash. He got his players to play hard absolutely but so do a ton of coaches. It's like when a team has a little white kid that hustles everyone says "he's the hardest working kid on the team". BS. And he maybe, who knows but the guys on the team, but it's just a blanket statement that is thrown out there because the guy can't really do anything else. Guys like Jordan, Kobe, LeBron those guys are not outworked, on or off the court. In fact they work so much harder than most guys which is why they are so good. But if you watch a Cavs game you rarely hear anyone say "man, LeBron works hard". You hear about how high he can jump, how strong he is, how hard he dunks, etc. That drives me batty. If I had to guess, I'd bet Blake Griffin was the hardest working kid on OU's team last year. That's why he's Blake Griffin. The great recruiters bring in great talents who also work extremely hard ala Blake Griffin.

 

[thebigabd]

I cant believe this thread is still going....

 

[Tony]

I cant believe this thread is still going....

People like to mind-read. Lots of mind-reading in this thread.

 

[Cheno]

I cant believe this thread is still going....

Why? When has a Kelvin thread ever stopped on it's own? :ez-laugh:
When you're polarizing this is what happens. People will never agree on Kelvin. That's why you shouldn't be polarizing.

 

[Sid]

While I agree with many of the opinions already expressed; to me, to sum up the biggest problem with Kelvin was recruiting, or lack thereof. I don't think Kelvin liked recruiting. I don't think he wanted to spend any effort going after elite players that KU, Duke, UNC, etc were going after. I don't think he actually believed he could recruit those kinds of players to a football school. I think he was satisfied going after hard-nosed kids who had some talent that would buy into his system and play extremely hard.

The one quote we hear that I hate is "he got more out of his players than anyone". What that means is, if he had better players he would be a regular in the final four. That brings us right back to recruiting. The only person responsible for the players he put on the court was Kelvin. Some were very good college players but most were role players. Very few elite players. Contrast that with what Jeff has done in a short time.

You nailed it. That's why I started using the term lunch pail after I heard Fran using it in one of his telecast. Hearing a broadcaster using those words to describe OU's basketball team rubbed me the wrong way. Lunch Pail and Oklahoma don't belong in the same sentence together. Unfortunately, that's how the basketball program was viewed by outsiders. What was even more disturbing to me was the fact that some OU fans bought into that nonsense. IMO, that kind of mediocre attitude is a program killer. I'm glad Jeff is proving all of those people wrong. Now, when Jeff calls up a highly touted kid, I bet 99% of them take his call.

This is totally what I feel. I hate the comment "he got more out of his players than anyone" thats hogwash. He got his players to play hard absolutely but so do a ton of coaches. It's like when a team has a little white kid that hustles everyone says "he's the hardest working kid on the team". BS. And he maybe, who knows but the guys on the team, but it's just a blanket statement that is thrown out there because the guy can't really do anything else. Guys like Jordan, Kobe, LeBron those guys are not outworked, on or off the court. In fact they work so much harder than most guys which is why they are so good. But if you watch a Cavs game you rarely hear anyone say "man, LeBron works hard". You hear about how high he can jump, how strong he is, how hard he dunks, etc. That drives me batty. If I had to guess, I'd bet Blake Griffin was the hardest working kid on OU's team last year. That's why he's Blake Griffin. The great recruiters bring in great talents who also work extremely hard ala Blake Griffin.

Another great post guys. Not only do I have to buy Cheno 2 beers, but now I have to buy Norm a beer as well. If you guys keep it up, I might have to throw in a couple of Cuban cigars for your enjoyment.

 

[NickZepp]

I cant believe this thread is still going....

Threads like this show how many on this board really actually hate Oklahoma basketball. Under Capel we've had a slower pace of basketball than we had under Sampson. Yet you don't hear anyone complain about how slow Capel's basketball is.

 

[SoonerNorm]

Threads like this show how many on this board really actually hate Oklahoma basketball. Under Capel we've had a slower pace of basketball than we had under Sampson. Yet you don't hear anyone complain about how slow Capel's basketball is.

I don't agree at all. I haven't read anything which tells me that fans on this board hate OU basketball. I also don't hear a large number of fans complain that they can't watch basketball unless we are scoring tons of points. Most fans want to win and win at a high level consistently. Period.