Last four years in Big 12 play

[sheepdogs1]

Yea I think part of this debate, at least for me, has less to do with what a coach has accomplished and more to do with how well they fit at OU.

Coaches aren't guaranteed to win just anywhere, even if they are a good coach. There are certain exceptions to that, kind of like Bob Knight taking a Texas Tech program that sucked for a few centuries and made them competitive. But Bob Knight is at the top of his profession.

So I would be looking at people that have a style that fits at OU, would understand how to recruit at OU, know how to put a team together at OU, etc. I always felt like Lon and Capel were more interested in signing the best available player instead of filling needs with players who can contribute right now.

The reason I bring that up is... when compared to Lon you could throw out a lot of names and loyalists would say "Lon has won more games", "Lon has been to a Final Four", "Lon has done X, Y, and Z"... but that doesn't make Lon a better fit in Norman.

Does that make sense at all?

Rationale sits upon a hill and looks down upon what is left.

 

[skyvue]

For me, Lon's a great fit in Norman. I am very happy not to have to worry about NCAA investigations or the penalties that accompany them. I like that we have a coach who is a kind and decent man, who gets involved in the community and works so hard for good causes like Coaches with Cancer, who is welcoming to fans (open practices are a gift not to be discounted -- I'd be attending frequently if I lived anywhere nearby), who doesn't make an ass of himself and embarrass the university.

And thankfully, my memory goes back more than 3.5 years. I very well recall the Final Four and the fun four seasons that led up to it. I also recall the success we've had in non-conference play the past four seasons and all those appearances in the NCAA tourney. Of course I wish we'd had better success in conference, but I try to never forget that all three of those seasons (I've not written this one off yet), the Big 12 has been one of the best, if not the best, conference in the country.

I'd ask anyone who would like to see Lon run off to name a coach who would be at least as good as he is (in all the areas I've cited above, as well as recruiting, wins and losses, etc.) and who would be even a relatively certain bet to come to OU. I'd love to hear the candidates you have in mind.

 

[thebigabd]

For me, Lon's a great fit in Norman. I am very happy not to have to worry about NCAA investigations or the penalties that accompany them. I like that we have a coach who is a kind and decent man, who gets involved in the community and works so hard for good causes like Coaches with Cancer, who is welcoming to fans (open practices are a gift not to be discounted -- I'd be attending frequently if I lived anywhere nearby), who doesn't make an ass of himself and embarrass the university.

And thankfully, my memory goes back more than 3.5 years. I very well recall the Final Four and the fun four seasons that led up to it. I also recall the success we've had in non-conference play the past four seasons and all those appearances in the NCAA tourney. Of course I wish we'd had better success in conference, but I try to never forget that all three of those seasons (I've not written this one off yet), the Big 12 has been one of the best, if not the best, conference in the country.

I'd ask anyone who would like to see Lon run off to name a coach who would be at least as good as he is (in all the areas I've cited above, as well as recruiting, wins and losses, etc.) and who would be even a relatively certain bet to come to OU. I'd love to hear the candidates you have in mind.

Chris Jans - New Mexico State

• Won 28 games in his first season - WAC Coach of the Year
• Went 30-5 in his second season - WAC Coach of the Year (with only one returning starter)
• Successful head coach at Bowling Green as well
• Coached at Texas, Kansas, and Florida junior colleges and knows that circuit really well. Was JUCO coach of the year as well when he was in that role

They are 17-6 this year.

He can win the games... put the team together... recruit the area... has the juco connections...

He would be my first choice.

 

[AdaSooner]

Yea I think part of this debate, at least for me, has less to do with what a coach has accomplished and more to do with how well they fit at OU.

Coaches aren't guaranteed to win just anywhere, even if they are a good coach. There are certain exceptions to that, kind of like Bob Knight taking a Texas Tech program that sucked for a few centuries and made them competitive. But Bob Knight is at the top of his profession.

So I would be looking at people that have a style that fits at OU, would understand how to recruit at OU, know how to put a team together at OU, etc. I always felt like Lon and Capel were more interested in signing the best available player instead of filling needs with players who can contribute right now.

The reason I bring that up is... when compared to Lon you could throw out a lot of names and loyalists would say "Lon has won more games", "Lon has been to a Final Four", "Lon has done X, Y, and Z"... but that doesn't make Lon a better fit in Norman.

Does that make sense at all?

To me, Lon Kruger and Jeff Capel are as different as night and day. Lon wants to sign the best player available who is also a good person. Jeff didn’t care if a recruit had a shady reputation, as long as he could help OU win games. That may not describe Capel now. But there is plenty of evidence to suggest that was his recruiting style when he was in Norman.

I understand why some here like to use the lack of program support as an excuse for our mediocre conference record the past few years. It’s hard to deny there is some truth to that. But it’s not like Lon is paid paupers wages to be our coach.

The link below shows his salary was in the middle of the pack last year about this time. That put him tied with Shaka Smart at $3.1 million. That means he is paid less than about half of the college coaches on this list, but it also means he’s paid more than the bottom half of the Top Twenty Five that includes several good coaches.

My point is not to suggest there may be coaches out there who are better options than Lon, although I think that’s possible. It’s to show that he is being paid well to coach at OU. Therefore, it’s not unreasonable for fans to expect more than finishing in the bottom half of the conference every season since we went to the Final Four.

https://www.businessinsider.com/college-basketball-highest-paid-coaches-2018-3

 

[skyvue]

Chris Jans - New Mexico State

• Won 28 games in his first season - WAC Coach of the Year
• Went 30-5 in his second season - WAC Coach of the Year (with only one returning starter)
• Successful head coach at Bowling Green as well
• Coached at Texas, Kansas, and Florida junior colleges and knows that circuit really well. Was JUCO coach of the year as well when he was in that role

They are 17-6 this year.

He can win the games... put the team together... recruit the area... has the juco connections...

He would be my first choice.

It's perhaps not surprising that you'd like to see us hire a coach with roots in JUCO (what a strange obsession you have). However, given he got fired from Bowling Green for being drunk in a bar and behaving (very) inappropriately toward women, that's a pass, thanks.

Video shows Bowling Green's Chris Jans slapping woman's buttocks
https://www.si.com/college/2015/04/02/chris-jans-bowling-green-state-fired

 

[daqman]

For me, Lon's a great fit in Norman. I am very happy not to have to worry about NCAA investigations or the penalties that accompany them. I like that we have a coach who is a kind and decent man, who gets involved in the community and works so hard for good causes like Coaches with Cancer, who is welcoming to fans (open practices are a gift not to be discounted -- I'd be attending frequently if I lived anywhere nearby), who doesn't make an ass of himself and embarrass the university.

And thankfully, my memory goes back more than 3.5 years. I very well recall the Final Four and the fun four seasons that led up to it. I also recall the success we've had in non-conference play the past four seasons and all those appearances in the NCAA tourney. Of course I wish we'd had better success in conference, but I try to never forget that all three of those seasons (I've not written this one off yet), the Big 12 has been one of the best, if not the best, conference in the country.

I'd ask anyone who would like to see Lon run off to name a coach who would be at least as good as he is (in all the areas I've cited above, as well as recruiting, wins and losses, etc.) and who would be even a relatively certain bet to come to OU. I'd love to hear the candidates you have in mind.

I'll leave that up to Joe C. I have confidence in him to make the right decision. I think he learned his lesson with the Capel debacle.
I'm not familiar with all the available coaches but I'm confident that we could attract someone with quality credentials with the 15th highest salary in the country.
One name I think should be on the list is Steve Henson.
And again, don't let your fear cause you to accept mediocrity. Remember, just ok is not ok.

 

[skyvue]

I'm confident that we could attract someone with quality credentials with the 15th highest salary in the country.

We have someone with Hall of Fame credentials. And do not kid yourself that a less experienced coach would command the same salary from Joe C. that Coach Kruger is being paid. A good chunk of that money could be pulled back for other purposes, if we're not hiring someone of Lon's experience and achievements.

One name I think should be on the list is Steve Henson.

You're impressed by his 60-61 win-loss record, are you?

 

[daqman]

We have someone with Hall of Fame credentials. And do not kid yourself that a less experienced coach would command the same salary from Joe C. that Coach Kruger is being paid. A good chunk of that money could be pulled back for other purposes, if we're not hiring someone of Lon's experience and achievements.



You're impressed by his 60-61 win-loss record, are you?

I'm not impressed by your instant dismissal, which is why I was reluctant to participate in your game.
Henson was part of some pretty good teams while he was here and things went downhill after he left. He apparently was good enough for your hall of fame coach, he ought to be good enough to be somewhere on the list of potential replacements.

 

[skyvue]

I'm not impressed by your instant dismissal, which is why I was reluctant to participate in your game.
Henson was part of some pretty good teams while he was here and things went downhill after he left. He apparently was good enough for your hall of fame coach, he ought to be good enough to be somewhere on the list of potential replacements.

Many terrific assistants are not meant to be head coaches. I'm not dismissing Henson -- I too thought he was a very good assistant and I was concerned (rightfully so, it seems) when he left. But he's not been overly impressive so far as a head coach. It's hard to defend firing a guy because he's gone .500 in a very tough conference in order to bring in a guy who's under .500 overall.

 

[daqman]

Many terrific assistants are not meant to be head coaches. I'm not dismissing Henson -- I too thought he was a very good assistant and I was concerned (rightfully so, it seems) when he left. But he's not been overly impressive so far as a head coach. It's hard to defend firing a guy because he's gone .500 in a very tough conference in order to bring in a guy who's under .500 overall.

I've never said fire Lon. I hope it doesn't come to that. I hope for once a head coach could admit he's not getting the results the school and the salary deserve and he retires or moves on with dignity.

 

[skyvue]

I've never said fire Lon. I hope it doesn't come to that. I hope for once a head coach could admit he's not getting the results the school and the salary deserve and he retires or moves on with dignity.

Fair enough. When you expressed the hope that Coach Kruger would soon be returning to his home in Vegas, I (mistakenly) assumed you were calling for him to be shown the door.

 

[opsooner]

I am very appreciative of what LK has done here. He has found good players and when we had enough of them we were good.

If OU basketball had the fan interest it had during Tubbs’ glory days we would be much better now with what we have in place. I don’t like LK’s style for a team like OU but you have to be very careful in replacing him. I’m not really for replacing him at all but if he retires soon it won’t bother me either. I will wish him well and appreciate what he did but I will also look forward to seeing if we can hire a guy who teaches and coaches a little differently to better match the talent of what we expect to recruit for the time being.


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[MrAnderson]

Bottom line: if a coach has the worst cumulative conference record in a 4 year stretch, imo, he should be shown the door, regardless of past achievements. 4 years is a large enough sample size that the writing is on the proverbial wall.

Maybe my expectations are too high.

 

[opsooner]

Again, I think our lack of home court advantage has really hurt us. But it is still well above .500 in conference which indicates we have had decent teams. But it is not as good as it should be.

My main issue is only 5 conference roads wins in last 4 seasons (so far, including this year). We were in the thick of many close games during that time. Even if we could have won one-third of those it would help. We just seem to evaporate too many times down the stretch on the road. It makes it very difficult to achieve a .500 conference record.


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[BCSooners]

Bottom line: if a coach has the worst cumulative conference record in a 4 year stretch, imo, he should be shown the door, regardless of past achievements. 4 years is a large enough sample size that the writing is on the proverbial wall.

Maybe my expectations are too high.

But 2 of 3 years OU made tourney & still have a solid chance this year. Shouldn’t be bubble every year though.

 

[WTSooner]

Bottom line: if a coach has the worst cumulative conference record in a 4 year stretch, imo, he should be shown the door, regardless of past achievements. 4 years is a large enough sample size that the writing is on the proverbial wall.

Maybe my expectations are too high.

I agree.

 

[skyvue]

1. Focusing solely on conference play doesn't begin to tell the whole story of a season (or a stretch of seasons) -- especially when we play one of the toughest schedules overall, year after year, and are in a conference that has been ranked the best or second-best virtually every season over that span.

2. I've heard the term "cumulative record" more times in the past six months than in my previous sixty years. And it's funny how those cumulative calculations always stop at four years. Every single time. And they never includes non-conference play (see point 1).

3. Even citing four years is jumping the gun, given that we're only halfway through conference play this season, and we're currently tied for fifth place in the conference, half a game out of fourth place, one game under .500.

4. We've been to the tourney 6 out of 8 seasons under Kruger (and missing out that first season should hardly be held against him), and we've got a solid shot to make it 7 out of 9. Kruger's tourney record is 7-6 (yes, that's cumulative -- two can play that game).

5. We've had two Kruger players become bona fide stars in the NBA. That's great for the program, and Coach Kruger has to be given credit for landing them (and for developing Buddy).

 

[Soonercpa2011]

All good points and after they beat W. Virginia on Saturday the narrative will change

 

[sheepdogs1]

All good points and after they beat W. Virginia on Saturday the narrative will change

Or delay it.

 

[MrAnderson]

1. Focusing solely on conference play doesn't begin to tell the whole story of a season (or a stretch of seasons) -- especially when we play one of the toughest schedules overall, year after year, and are in a conference that has been ranked the best or second-best virtually every season over that span.

2. I've heard the term "cumulative record" more times in the past six months than in my previous sixty years. And it's funny how those cumulative calculations always stop at four years. Every single time. And they never includes non-conference play (see point 1).

3. Even citing four years is jumping the gun, given that we're only halfway through conference play this season, and we're currently tied for fifth place in the conference, half a game out of fourth place, one game under .500.

4. We've been to the tourney 6 out of 8 seasons under Kruger (and missing out that first season should hardly be held against him), and we've got a solid shot to make it 7 out of 9. Kruger's tourney record is 7-6 (yes, that's cumulative -- two can play that game).

5. We've had two Kruger players become bona fide stars in the NBA. That's great for the program, and Coach Kruger has to be given credit for landing them (and for developing Buddy).

1. Sounds like SEC football fans. Finishing in the bottom quadrant of the league is okay because it's a tough league?

2. Since you don't like arbitrary time frames (fair point)and want to talk about overall, Lon is 76-77 in league play since he arrived in Norman. While that record in a vacuum probably isn't fire-able (or maybe it is depending on your standards) it's fair to look at the trajectory of the program since Buddy and co. left, no? And, sure, non-con success is nice but league play is a better indicator of where a program is, because, like you said, it is a tough league and everybody plays home-and-home with everybody else. If OU finishes near the bottom most years the non-con is kind of moot, imo.

3. Granted

4. Squeaking into the tournament as a 9 or 10 seed with no real shot at making the second weekend is not indicative of a successful season, to me anyway.

5. I could argue this point but it doesn't affect how I feel about Lon going forward so whatever.