Status of Program

[sybarite]

Looks like a lot of BS in your family. I'm done with you. You are dismissed.

Yep. You do know the difference in a B.S. and a B.A.

 

[Sweetest OU Girl]

You are correct that there are multiple factors other than wins and losses that determine attendance. Television is a factor, basketball tradition and competition for the entertainment dollar it is doubtful that overall attendance for both the men's and women's game will approach the peaks of ten years ago.

But if you compare the 10 year percentage attendance 2007-2016 you can see that OU has definitely had a larger attendance loss than many of the other top school in women's basketball. OU's attendance in 2016 is off 54.4%.

Maryland's attendance is off 45.1%, Tennessee's off 29.1%, Texas' off 26.6%, UConn's off 17.4%, Baylor's off 0.2%, Iowa State up 10.4%, Notre Dame's up 32.6%, Louisville's up 206.2% and South Carolina's up 508.6%.

Given the impact of TV on attendance impacts all schools, OU not being a traditional a BB school and competition for the entertainment dollar by many sources success on the court would still appear to have had a greater impact on attendance than it has at the other major WBB schools.

Obviously ISU and Maryland are somewhat an anomaly as the cyclones program has fallen more than OU's and Maryland has continued to win on a bigger scale. Likewise Louisville and South Carolina have probably had the greatest improvement in their level of play over the last 10 years and they have also had the greatest growth in attendance numbers.

I would submit that the lack of on court success is the single biggest factor in the drop in attendance over the last decade. It is worthwhile to also note that the men's team made the Final Four and had a massive grow in attendance after moderate growth the preceding two years when they won big. As would be expected attendance in 2017 is again way down with their conference record now standing at 2-10.

One of the favorite jokes made by statisticians goes like this:

"Some people use statistics like an inebriate uses a lamp post. More for support than illumination."

If you want to actually evaluate how attendance is changing, it is important to look at more than just two carefully selected years. Our highest attendance was when Courtney was here. You selected that as a starting year.

If you look at several years it looks like this:

10-11
Baylor 9052
OU 7042

12-13
Baylor 9503
OU 6668

14-15
Baylor 7322
OU 5572

15-16
Baylor 7016
OU 5283

It will be interesting to see what our average attendance will be this year since we have two home games remaining (BU and Texas) that will bring out lots of fans. I'm not sure what we did with the Kansas game with all the kids. Not sure if our current numbers for this year reflect that or not, but we probably had 8 or 9 thousand that day.

But obviously Baylor has also had attendance drops recently. Much more than the 0.2% you show. In fact in raw numbers both OU and BU have dropped about the same over the years above. There are just so many factors involved it would take a very careful and time consuming study to figure what is likely the cause.

One pretty obvious factor is we dropped when Courtney graduated and Baylor dropped when Griner left.

 

[inoref]

Well attendance is down doesn't matter what numbers you want to twist, again for the folks that complain about baylor they keep bringing them in...what does baylor have to do with OU? Is Kim Mulkey calling the shots now at OU?

 

[SoonerSpock]

One of the favorite jokes made by statisticians goes like this:

"Some people use statistics like an inebriate uses a lamp post. More for support than illumination."

If you want to actually evaluate how attendance is changing, it is important to look at more than just two carefully selected years. Our highest attendance was when Courtney was here. You selected that as a starting year.

If you look at several years it looks like this:

10-11
Baylor 9052
OU 7042

12-13
Baylor 9503
OU 6668

14-15
Baylor 7322
OU 5572

15-16
Baylor 7016
OU 5283

It will be interesting to see what our average attendance will be this year since we have two home games remaining (BU and Texas) that will bring out lots of fans. I'm not sure what we did with the Kansas game with all the kids. Not sure if our current numbers for this year reflect that or not, but we probably had 8 or 9 thousand that day.

But obviously Baylor has also had attendance drops recently. Much more than the 0.2% you show. In fact in raw numbers both OU and BU have dropped about the same over the years above. There are just so many factors involved it would take a very careful and time consuming study to figure what is likely the cause.

One pretty obvious factor is we dropped when Courtney graduated and Baylor dropped when Griner left.

You are the one who fails to understand the numbers. The attendance number I have used are for two time periods the last 6 years and the last 10 years for all the schools referenced in my post. The numbers come from the attached link which are the official NCAA numbers. Nothing select in my analysis to skew the results.

Moreover I do not misuse statistics and I can assure you I know as much and most like more about how to correctly use these numbers without making any false innuendos than do you.

First my post referenced the absence of the yet played Texas and Baylor games. I suspect no numbers were published for the Kansas game because of the 5,500-7000 free admissions provided to the kids.

Learn to read and comprehend what I posted and you will not be confused with what I said.


http://www.ncaa.org/championships/statistics/womens-basketball-attendance

 

[soonerdanny]

Duke has a long history, but it is mostly in the past, and they have fewer finals fours. A lot of their history was while OU was still in the non-women's basketball prairie, awaiting the run.

Your numbers are off on Duke. (They're off on several schools, actually -- Louisville has 6 Sweet 16s, not 5; Texas has 29 tourney appearances, not 21; etc. -- but the Duke errors are the most material here.) Duke has 4 Final Fours (1999, 2002, 2003, 2006), including 2 runner-up finishes. They have more Elite Eights in the last 7 seasons than we have total (4 to our 3), and they have 11 overall. All but 1 FF and 1 EE happened from 2002 on. There's no remotely reasonable argument that has OU above Duke in the WBB program pecking order.

One of the schools mentioned as superior to OU was Louisville who has fewer NCAA appearances and final fours.

It's funny that you write off Duke's accomplishments as mostly being too far in the past to be worth much in one sentence, but then rely on our early 2000s history to argue that OU belongs above Louisville in the next. OU has done more than Louisville all-time, yes, but UL also has 6 Sweet 16s since 2008 to our 2, 3 in the last 4 seasons to our 1, and 2 Elite Eights in the last 4 years to our 0. They've easily been a stronger program in recent years, if we're giving disproportionate weight to more recent history.

 

[soonerdanny]

I can exceed that.

You certainly didn't with that post. He gave a long description focused almost entirely on his personal connection to and involvement with OU, and you responded with...a post focused almost entirely on what your extended family has done.

 

[sybarite]

You certainly didn't with that post. He gave a long description focused almost entirely on his personal connection to and involvement with OU, and you responded with...a post focused almost entirely on what your extended family has done.

Another would-be fan? Let's see. He indicated that he has been a fan since 58. I provide a hundred year association with the university. The extended family lived in Norman and still owns a home in Norman, as well as a farm in Norman. Yes, that exceeds fifty years.

If you want to be known as a fan of OU, bring something positive as a fan rather than making every post a negative comment concerning a Hall of Fame coach. The constant pack of dogs that snipe at our program have a strange way of showing support.

 

[SoonerSpock]

Another would-be fan? Let's see. He indicated that he has been a fan since 58. I provide a hundred year association with the university. The extended family lived in Norman and still owns a home in Norman, as well as a farm in Norman. Yes, that exceeds fifty years.

If you want to be known as a fan of OU, bring something positive as a fan rather than making every post a negative comment concerning a Hall of Fame coach. The constant pack of dogs that snipe at our program have a strange way of showing support.

Fortunately for OU you do not get to define what an OU fan is nor do you put your butt in LNC on a regular basis to support the Sooners. I know many of us Sooners that have driven 200 miles twice a weak to support OU at the LNC, self included. Even moved to Norman to support the kids when I retired.

Discussing the shortcomings of the various programs on an internet website is not being a negative fan it is manifesting our interest, our concern and seeking other opinions about how to better the programs. It is an endeavor to enjoy the Sooners 24/7. Living with a sack over ones head when viewing the Sooners with only one perspective is not being a fan.

Your moaning about others concerns regarding the Sooners is an attempt to force ones myopic few of Sooner fandom to conform to your closed mind by making pesonal attacks to demean the other viewpoint.

 

[Sweetest OU Girl]

Yep. You do know the difference in a B.S. and a B.A.

Don't bother with them, Syb.

Good grief,he didn't even go to the Rose Bowl with the football team. And hasn't been to Iowa State for a football game? Lots of real fans (like me) have done both.

And some vastly overstate the actual Iowa State attendance numbers. When I went, the top half of the arena was virtually empty - and darkened so it was not so obvious on TV. And the sections behind the baskets were very sparsely used. Not sure what their numbers actually mean.

I do wonder why BU's attendance numbers have dropped so much recently - while they are still fairly successful on the court. It suggests to me that factors other than winning are involved. In their case, maybe many fans are disheartened by all the rapes and crimes that have been covered up.

 

[tycat947]

Don't bother with them, Syb.

Good grief,he didn't even go to the Rose Bowl with the football team. And hasn't been to Iowa State for a football game? Lots of real fans (like me) have done both.

And some vastly overstate the actual Iowa State attendance numbers. When I went, the top half of the arena was virtually empty - and darkened so it was not so obvious on TV. And the sections behind the baskets were very sparsely used. Not sure what their numbers actually mean.

I do wonder why BU's attendance numbers have dropped so much recently - while they are still fairly successful on the court. It suggests to me that factors other than winning are involved. In their case, maybe many fans are disheartened by all the rapes and crimes that have been covered up.

+1

 

[inoref]

Don't bother with them, Syb.

Good grief,he didn't even go to the Rose Bowl with the football team. And hasn't been to Iowa State for a football game? Lots of real fans (like me) have done both.

And some vastly overstate the actual Iowa State attendance numbers. When I went, the top half of the arena was virtually empty - and darkened so it was not so obvious on TV. And the sections behind the baskets were very sparsely used. Not sure what their numbers actually mean.

I do wonder why BU's attendance numbers have dropped so much recently - while they are still fairly successful on the court. It suggests to me that factors other than winning are involved. In their case, maybe many fans are disheartened by all the rapes and crimes that have been covered up.

Some of it may be that their fans don't show up until they play really strong teams like UConn? I mean like when OU football plays a team like oh say Middle Tenn St. Not sure how well the UConn fans show up..I don't have their numbers. Maybe some fans get tired of seeing 30pt blowouts ?

 

[Sweetest OU Girl]

Some of it may be that their fans don't show up until they play really strong teams like UConn? I mean like when OU football plays a team like oh say Middle Tenn St. Not sure how well the UConn fans show up..I don't have their numbers. Maybe some fans get tired of seeing 30pt blowouts ?

I'm not sure about that, but it may be a small factor. OU sometimes has bigger crowds when better teams - like UCONN - play our WBB team.

I'm not sure our football team has ever played "Middle Tennessee State", but they do have many, many straight sellouts -no matter the opponent - and the crowd looks capacity - or very close to it.

I think having a special player brings in bigger crowds - especially from the fans who are fans, but just not quite as committed as the most loyal fans. That seems to have been true during OU's years with Courtney and BU's with Griner.

I did notice that UCONN was pretty full in the lower bowl last night, but the upper bowl (darkened to make it less obvious) was very, very sparse. And that was against a very highly rated opponent.

 

[SoonerSpock]

As best as I can determine all attendance numbers reported by the NCAA are based on tickets sold not acutal attendance. I feel almost certain that is the practice followed by virtually every school.

I always enjoy checking the box score for attendance at all basketball games and they announce the official attendance at all home football games. I was especially appreciative when about 5 years back the OU box scores began posting not only the official attendance but also an estimated attendance number for both the men's and women's team. A couple years later the women quit publishing the estimated attendance numbers My inquiry with OU informed me those numbers were for tickets sold and tickets scanned. I as a fan liked having the knowledge of the number of fans actually at the game.

I have spot checked both the men's and women's team box scores for Texas, Kansas, OSU, Baylor, UConn, Notre Dame and a couple more and both teams at all the above schools publish only one attendance number in the box score.

To my knowledge only the OU men's team is still publishing both attendance and estimated attendance numbers for each home game. I wish it was a NCAA directive that both the attendance (tickets sold) and estimated attendance (tickets scanned) be published for every game. And I wish Joe C. would insure that the same is done for WBB that is done for MBB with regard to attendance numbers.

Official Basketball Box Score -- Game Totals -- Final Statistics
Oklahoma State vs Oklahoma
1/30/17 8 p.m. CT at Norman, Okla. (Lloyd Noble Center)
Oklahoma State 68 • 14-8, 3-6
Total 3-Ptr Rebounds
## Player FG-FGA FG-FGA FT-FTA Off Def Tot PF TP A TO Blk Stl Min
23 Hammonds, Leyton f 1-3 1-3 0-0 1 2 3 3 3 1 1 0 2 22
41 Solomon, Mitchell f 1-4 0-0 2-2 4 4 8 3 4 1 1 1 1 25
01 Evans, Jawun g 5-20 3-7 11-16 1 4 5 0 24 4 5 0 3 35
13 Forte, Phil g 4-11 3-8 0-0 2 0 2 1 11 0 0 0 0 33
30 Carroll, Jeffrey g 1-8 0-3 4-4 2 7 9 4 6 2 0 1 0 23
00 Averette, Brandon 2-2 0-0 0-0 0 1 1 1 4 0 1 0 0 12
12 McGriff, Cameron 0-1 0-1 0-0 1 1 2 3 0 1 1 1 0 13
14 N'Guessan, Lucas 2-4 0-0 0-0 1 1 2 4 4 0 2 1 0 8
21 Waters, Lindy 4-5 3-3 0-0 2 0 2 1 11 0 0 0 0 18
24 Dillard, Davon 0-2 0-1 1-3 2 3 5 2 1 0 1 0 1 11
Team 4 1 5
Totals 20-60 10-26 18-25 20 24 44 22 68 9 12 4 7 200
FG % 1st Half: 10-31 32.3%
3FG % 1st Half: 5-16 31.3%
FT % 1st Half: 10-13 76.9%
2nd half: 10-29 34.5%
2nd half: 5-10 50.0%
2nd half: 8-12 66.7%
Game: 20-60 33.3%
Game: 10-26 38.5%
Game: 18-25 72.0%
Deadball
Rebounds
3
Oklahoma 66 • 8-13, 2-7
Total 3-Ptr Rebounds
## Player FG-FGA FG-FGA FT-FTA Off Def Tot PF TP A TO Blk Stl Min
11 Doolittle, Kristian f 2-5 0-0 2-2 1 5 6 1 6 1 0 1 0 19
12 Lattin, Khadeem f 3-3 0-0 2-3 1 0 1 3 8 0 1 6 0 24
01 Odomes, Rashard g 0-1 0-0 1-2 1 1 2 2 1 1 2 0 0 19
10 Woodard, Jordan g 3-11 1-6 0-0 1 1 2 3 7 2 1 0 1 29
20 McGusty, Kameron g 9-17 1-5 3-5 0 4 4 4 22 2 5 0 1 35
03 James, Christian 1-5 1-4 4-4 0 4 4 1 7 0 1 0 2 26
04 McNeace, Jamuni 2-2 0-0 0-1 0 1 1 2 4 0 0 1 0 16
13 Shepherd, Jordan 0-1 0-0 0-0 0 0 0 1 0 1 1 0 1 11
21 Buford, Dante 3-5 2-4 3-6 1 4 5 0 11 0 1 0 2 21
Team 2 4 6
Totals 23-50 5-19 15-23 7 24 31 17 66 7 12 8 7 200
FG % 1st Half: 13-26 50.0%
3FG % 1st Half: 3-8 37.5%
FT % 1st Half: 7-10 70.0%
2nd half: 10-24 41.7%
2nd half: 2-11 18.2%
2nd half: 8-13 61.5%
Game: 23-50 46.0%
Game: 5-19 26.3%
Game: 15-23 65.2%
Deadball
Rebounds
4
Officials: Joe DeRosa, Gerry Pollard, Bert Smith
Technical fouls: Oklahoma State-None. Oklahoma-None.
Attendance: 10103
Est. Attendance: 7210
Score by periods 1st 2nd Total
Oklahoma State 35 33 68
Oklahoma 36 30 66
In Off 2nd Fast
Points Paint T/O Chance Break Bench
OSU 16 12 13 2 20
OU 18 9 9 2 22
Last FG - OSU 2nd-00:11, OU 2nd-01:17.
Largest lead - OSU by 10 2nd-12:35, OU by 7 1st-07:55.
OSU led for 13:27. OU led for 21:46. Game was tied for 04:19.
Score tied - 9 times.
Lead changed - 12 times.

 

[SKSooner]

Attendance at games is a problem affecting almost every single sport - including college football. College football attendance has come down, even in the SEC.

While OU's team isn't as good as it has been in the past, we still aren't that far away from contending at an elite level. That's why I am patient. If you are good enough to get to 20-6, you aren't that far away from being 24-2 and really, really good. We just need another player, and we'd be there. It's not like it's the end of the world.

No, I am not satisfied with our performance over the last few years. I'm sure Sherri Coale isn't either. But people are acting like we are a .500 basketball team. We are not! We are a good team. A really nice team. But we're not a great team. We can be a great team with just a break here or there on the recruiting landscape. I really don't think it's as bad as some think it is.

 

[tycat947]

Attendance at games is a problem affecting almost every single sport - including college football. College football attendance has come down, even in the SEC.

While OU's team isn't as good as it has been in the past, we still aren't that far away from contending at an elite level. That's why I am patient. If you are good enough to get to 20-6, you aren't that far away from being 24-2 and really, really good. We just need another player, and we'd be there. It's not like it's the end of the world.

No, I am not satisfied with our performance over the last few years. I'm sure Sherri Coale isn't either. But people are acting like we are a .500 basketball team. We are not! We are a good team. A really nice team. But we're not a great team. We can be a great team with just a break here or there on the recruiting landscape. I really don't think it's as bad as some think it is.

Thank you!

 

[Oliver Hardy]

Thank you!

I cannot, and do not want to, disagree with this. I think this is a pretty accurate description.


BTW, Sherri is my valentine. I'm just sayin'.

 

[sybarite]

I am going to make an assumption.

I assume that the football sellouts are legitimate.

---when I was in college, a good number of members of sororities and fraternities went because it was "required" for the standing of the house.
(what I was told. I was never a member).
---a lot of seats are now sold to corporate interests for advertising purposes. I assume that these would be filled by fans if they hadn't been purchased for the firm.

Does basketball have either of these advantages?

 

[SoonerSpock]

I am going to make an assumption.

I assume that the football sellouts are legitimate.

---when I was in college, a good number of members of sororities and fraternities went because it was "required" for the standing of the house.
(what I was told. I was never a member).
---a lot of seats are now sold to corporate interests for advertising purposes. I assume that these would be filled by fans if they hadn't been purchased for the firm.

Does basketball have either of these advantages?

Based on what I know a greater percentage of men's season basketball tickets are purchased by corporations than football season tickets but WBB is not afforded the same interest by corporations. Some yes but not nearly as many as for the men's game.

I have attended virtually all of the OU football games for decades and every game during the Stoops era is listed as a sellout. However the administration manipulates attendance numbers to ensure the game is listed as a sellout for marketing reasons.

The listed capacity for GFMS is 84,000 up from 82,112 with the recent stadium updates but will be reduced by about 2,000 when handrails are installed in the aisles prior to 2019. This stated capacity is 3,000 less than seats distributed on purpose to ensure their ability to report a sellout. It has been that way for several decades that I am aware of.

At every game they announce the game attendance at 84,750-85,500 with the all time record being for the 2016 Ohio State game at 87,939 (4,000 above capacity). However, there are generally several hundred to a couple of thousand vacant seats at every game. I even recall seeing a couple of sellout games with a fourth to a third of one section vacant. There were more than a few vacant seats for the Ohio State game.

Net, net reported attendance has absolutely nothing to do with the numbers of butts in seats. Never has and never will.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaylord_Family_Oklahoma_Memorial_Stadium

 

[soonerdanny]

Another would-be fan? Let's see. He indicated that he has been a fan since 58. I provide a hundred year association with the university.

Again, he principally discussed his direct, personal involvement with OU. You didn't.

What your grandparents and great uncles did does not make you more of a fan than anyone else.

If you want to be known as a fan of OU, bring something positive as a fan rather than making every post a negative comment concerning a Hall of Fame coach.

I haven't said anything about SC. In fact, I support her. All I've done is call attention to the numerous factual errors in your arguments regarding OU's current position in the WBB pecking order (and on which you've been silent).

 

[sybarite]

Again, he principally discussed his direct, personal involvement with OU. You didn't.

What your grandparents and great uncles did does not make you more of a fan than anyone else.



I haven't said anything about SC. In fact, I support her. All I've done is call attention to the numerous factual errors in your arguments regarding OU's current position in the WBB pecking order (and on which you've been silent).

You are trying to make a point on a technicality. Somewhere, you seemed to miss that you are defending a Bachelors and Masters from OU against a B.S. and Ph.D. You seem to be concerned about the past fifty years, whereas my association began back in the Lester Lane, Tommy McDonald era. I had season tickets to all sports at OU every year I lived within a hundred miles of Norman, and I subscribed to the Norman and Oklahoma City newspapers by mail when I lived in Europe to keep up with OU. It extends beyond time and borders.

Now, if you actually had good things to say about OU, either of you,, I might not wonder why you claimed to be a fan.