Thoughts on the Thunder

[SoonerBounce13]

That means nothing. Stats are for losers.

well it means something. Nobody is trying to take pride in it but it shows that with the exception of a couple lapses, the thunder could have won the series.

I have heard talk of Abrines finally coming over this next year. I doubt he would be a factor though. Just take Morrow's minutes

 

[campbest]

That means nothing. Stats are for losers.

Solid "GET OFF MY LAWN" post.

 

[WTSooner]

I agree. And I don't think the THunder are far off. If KD would have had 1 typical KD takeover game, the thunder would be in the finals. He just wasn't himself during the series and I think it was mostly fatigue from playing defense for a whole game

Fair enough. But I'd argue Curry wasn't himself early in the series either. I think he was just rounding into form the last 1-2 games of the OKC series. And he still looked banged up to me, even with the success he had in the last game or two.

 

[campbest]

Fair enough. But I'd argue Curry wasn't himself early in the series either. I think he was just rounding into form the last 1-2 games of the OKC series. And he still looked banged up to me, even with the success he had in the last game or two.

Curry was not banged up, he just didn't have the normal space to operate in the half court most of the series. He really didn't get it going until he found some openings in transition.

There are videos of him dunking during pre-game where he is throwing oops to himself...you can't do that at his size if you're banged up.

 

[SoonerBounce13]

yeah i don't buy he was banged up. I think that like KD, he had to work so much on defense that he was tired too. He did a good job on westbrook imo and that takes a lot out of someone

 

[BCSooners]

If Roberson can knock down a corner 3 consistently then he's your answer (and cheap). Ibaka isn't going to get much better but he's still a solid PF. You can almost guarantee Payne & Adams will make significant strides. Also Waiters & Kanter should improve some.

 

[sdcloud9]

yeah i don't buy he was banged up. I think that like KD, he had to work so much on defense that he was tired too. He did a good job on westbrook imo and that takes a lot out of someone

I agree, however, Curry tends to have a bit of a "loser's limp" when he's not shooting well.

 

[hoopsaustin]

Sit pat. Our team is great. We almost made it through the buzz saw that is the western conference. Nearly no changes needed

 

[WTSooner]

Curry was not banged up, he just didn't have the normal space to operate in the half court most of the series. He really didn't get it going until he found some openings in transition.

There are videos of him dunking during pre-game where he is throwing oops to himself...you can't do that at his size if you're banged up.

lmao, he hardly played in the two series before the series with OKC. Wasn't banged up. Got a cortisone shot before game 6 or 7 I believe.

You could tell early in the series he wasn't moving well. I'm not denying that OKC's length, at times, made life a bit more difficult for him. But if you don't think he was hurt/hobbled/whatever, you are clearly kidding yourselves.

 

[Mr.B!!!]

Sit pat. Our team is great. We almost made it through the buzz saw that is the western conference. Nearly no changes needed

This. Keep Durant and everyone else, spend another year getting better and hopefully figure out a way for Kanter, Waiters and Payne to be viable bench players on a consistent basis. And if Roberson can become serviceable [35%] as a three-point threat, probably the best starting five in the league [if not already, I think the stats said that we were last season but can't swear to it].

 

[outest]

Thunder were one win from making the NBA finals and yet they still have so many room to improve.

1. Westbrook needs to play more efficiently. Limit turnovers and efficient with shot selection. This alone might win them the NBA championship.

2. Robertson improves his shooting.

3. Serge should stop shooting outside and develop a post game. He should not try to shoot from the outside. This limits his offensive rebound capability. We were playing again a 6'7 post and yet we don't have offensive post player presence inside to open up Durant and Westbrook on the outside. He does not have to be a Aldridge. All he need to be is a decent offensive post player. Don't know why he declined to go to Hakeem Olajuwon big man camp. Seem like he wants to play a small forward role with a big forward body.

4. Develop a quality backup point guard.

 

[SoonerBounce13]

3. Serge should stop shooting outside and develop a post game. He should not try to shoot from the outside. This limits his offensive rebound capability. We were playing again a 6'7 post and yet we don't have offensive post player presence inside to open up Durant and Westbrook on the outside. He does not have to be a Aldridge. All he need to be is a decent offensive post player. Don't know why he declined to go to Hakeem Olajuwon big man camp. Seem like he wants to play a small forward role with a big forward body.

I am actually coming around to serge shooting threes if he hits them at the clip he did this season. It spaces the floor out.

Adams and kanter are talented offensive post players.

Also, we were a historically good rebounding team with him on the outside.

Pretty sure this is a design of presti even if serge wanted to play inside more (i don't think he does)

 

[Smash Williams]

I am actually coming around to serge shooting threes if he hits them at the clip he did this season. It spaces the floor out.

Adams and kanter are talented offensive post players.

Also, we were a historically good rebounding team with him on the outside.

Pretty sure this is a design of presti even if serge wanted to play inside more (i don't think he does)

If you watch Ibaka's exit interview from yesterday, that's pretty much what he said. He said he has to be a stretch 4 because that's what the team wants him to be. But given how the league is now, it's how any other team would use him, whether as a 4 or a 5.

It'll never cease to amaze me how stuck in the past fans are about every big needing a post game, especially Ibaka. Who are these elite teams playing through bigs in the low post nowadays? The NBA has changed so much in the last couple decades. It was a lot easier to pass out of double teams in the illegal defense days, when teams weren't allowed to zone up on the weakside. Nowadays, if you have a player who's skilled enough to draw a double in the post, it's not that valuable if he isn't also a good passer who sees the floor well and can anticipate where that pass should go even with his back to the rest of the action. Thus, a post game is still a useful weapon if you're a dangerous scorer who sees the floor well, like LeBron or even Durant or Westbrook. Otherwise, when opposing defenses send a double on a post player who doesn't pass well, it short-circuits the offense and allows the defense to reset. After Mozgov torched the Warriors for 28 points in Game 4 last year, they played him off the floor by double-teaming him, realizing that he would turn it over or take so long to decide where to go with the ball that the offense couldn't capitalize on the double. Does anyone seriously believe that Ibaka is a capable enough passer to carve up a defense if he draws a double in the post? Would you rather have Westbrook and Durant creating open jumpers for Ibaka, or would you rather have Ibaka trying to create open jumpers for Westbrook and Durant?

In today's NBA, the best defenses in the league are going to kill you if you can't space the floor. OKC starts two non-shooters in Adams and Roberson; on a related note, Westbrook ran into a wall of bodies nearly every time he tried to drive to the basket against Golden State. Asking Ibaka to play closer to the basket just clogs up the lane even more by drawing yet another defender toward the paint. Furthermore, if you have two bigs playing close to the basket on offense while your PG attacks the rim, you're going to get destroyed in transition if you don't grab the offensive rebound. Playing Ibaka high not only opens the floor up for Westbrook and KD on offense; it also puts a capable, athletic defensive big in position to get back in transition to cut off easy scoring opportunities.

As SoonerBounce13 mentioned, OKC was a historically good offensive rebounding team. The gap in offensive rebounding % between OKC and the #2 ORB% team (Detroit) was bigger than the gap between #2 and #23 (San Antonio). Part of that is OKC's personnel, which includes a PG who's ridiculously good at crashing the boards; part of it is that OKC has a much more aggressive approach to offensive rebounding than the rest of the league, as most teams put more of a premium on transition defense. Asking Ibaka to crash the boards more aggressively would be reckless.

Ibaka's 3-point shooting actually fell off a bit this year (32.6%), but he shot 37.3% over the previous three seasons, including 37.6% on a career-high 205 3PA in 2014-15. Given those previous seasons, plus the fact that Ibaka still shot well from mid-range this year, I think his 3-point % drop was random variation rather than indicative of a real decline.

We were playing again a 6'7 post and yet we don't have offensive post player presence inside to open up Durant and Westbrook on the outside. He does not have to be a Aldridge. All he need to be is a decent offensive post player. Don't know why he declined to go to Hakeem Olajuwon big man camp. Seem like he wants to play a small forward role with a big forward body.

After going down 2-1 to Memphis in last year's playoffs, Golden State adjusted by putting Draymond Green and Harrison Barnes on Marc Gasol and Zach Randolph, respectively. I'd say Gasol and Randolph are better than decent post players.

The Warriors' small-ball lineup works so well in part because Green is a ridiculously good low-post defender. He's strong and bulky with a 7'1" wingspan.

As for Olajuwon's big man camp, please list the names of all of the big men whose post games have been magically transformed by spending a couple of weeks working out with The Dream.

 

[SilliSooner]

Westbrook still shoots too much and is not really a shooter. He gets lucky sometimes but the guy shoots less than 30%. He has to have a lot of shots to score points. Curry and Thompson are volume scorers, and that's what the Thunder needs is a player like that. It's one reason I think they should make a deal to get Hield. He would fit in nicely in that rotation with RW, KD, Adams and one other (Kanter/Roberson/etc.).

Wish we could get Hield but it remains to be seen whether he will still be effective moving out to the longer three point line. A lot of super great college three point shooters like Jimmer Ferdette and others never became as effective in the pros.

Westbrook is a great shooter, when you consider mid-range jumpers and attacks on the basket. As a three point shooter he's at 31-32% but many of his shots are at the shot clock experations.

 

[SilliSooner]

Olajuwan's big man camp costs 15 to 25K per week so not many except the millionaires can afford it. Kobe Bryant credits Akeem for improving his post moves. Both Lopez brothers praise it. I'll try to get a list of other attendees. The truth is unless you are already very coordinated and have good footwork you probably won't benefit - Tyson Chandler and JaVelle McGee never got to the point they applied Akeem's footwork drills into game situations.

 

[Smash Williams]

Wish we could get Hield but it remains to be seen whether he will still be effective moving out to the longer three point line. A lot of super great college three point shooters like Jimmer Ferdette and others never became as effective in the pros.

Westbrook is a great shooter, when you consider mid-range jumpers and attacks on the basket. As a three point shooter he's at 31-32% but many of his shots are at the shot clock experations.

Jimmer shot 39.4% from 3 in college, including 39.6% his senior year. He's shot 38.1% from 3 in his NBA career. Jimmer's 3-point shot translated to the NBA just fine; it's every other aspect of his game that's prevented him from sticking.

Westbrook isn't a great shooter; he's great at creating shots. He was a 29.6% 3-point shooter this year; he was 11/39 on attempts with 4-7 seconds left on the shot clock and 13/42 with less than 4 seconds, meaning he also shot 29.6% (24/81)--identical to his overall 3-point average--with under 7 seconds on the shot clock. His late shot clock splits in previous seasons aren't too different, either. Over the last three years, he's shot 32.9% in 3-point catch and shoot situations, compared to 30.2% on all 3PA. That doesn't factor in contested vs. uncontested shots, but there isn't any evidence that he's a "great shooter" anywhere outside the restricted area.

Olajuwan's big man camp costs 15 to 25K per week so not many except the millionaires can afford it. Kobe Bryant credits Akeem for improving his post moves. Both Lopez brothers praise it. I'll try to get a list of other attendees. The truth is unless you are already very coordinated and have good footwork you probably won't benefit - Tyson Chandler and JaVelle McGee never got to the point they applied Akeem's footwork drills into game situations.

Kobe was a good post player before ever working with Olajuwon; he just went to it more frequently afterward.

One Lopez brother always had a good post game; the other one didn't. Working with Olajuwon didn't change that.

I know about the other guys that have worked with Olajuwon: Dwight, LeBron, etc. He hasn't turned anyone who didn't already have low-post skills into a low-post scorer. Perhaps you can credit Dream for helping Kobe and LeBron refine skills that were already there and getting them more comfortable with posting up more often, but he's not performing miracles in a few weeks of work. Thus, I don't understand how anyone is seriously criticizing Ibaka for not working out with Olajuwon, as if it would have made a difference.

 

[SilliSooner]

I never criticized Ibaka for not training with Hakeem. I'm sure Mark Bryant gives Serge sufficient training. It can be noted that Olajuwan started his school or camp mainly training African born players or second generation players like Emeka Okafur, Ike Diago, Luel Deng, etc.

 

[KBaden145]

Durant is the player on the roster that really needs to develop a post game. Teams often use a small player to guard him on the perimeter and, so far, KD and OKC have been unable to exploit that matchup like they should. It would be extremely effective when teams go small and OKC go small in response. Ideally, it would work best if they could add some shooting to the lineup but, with improvement from some guys on the current roster, it would make a potent offense that much harder to matchup with.


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[Smash Williams]

I never criticized Ibaka for not training with Hakeem.

You didn't, but someone else did in this thread, which is why it's even being discussed.

Durant is the player on the roster that really needs to develop a post game. Teams often use a small player to guard him on the perimeter and, so far, KD and OKC have been unable to exploit that matchup like they should. It would be extremely effective when teams go small and OKC go small in response. Ideally, it would work best if they could add some shooting to the lineup but, with improvement from some guys on the current roster, it would make a potent offense that much harder to matchup with.


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Durant led the league in points per possession on post-ups, averaging 1.23 PPP on 149 post-up possessions; he shot over 60% on post-ups. That only includes possessions in which he shot the ball, drew a foul, or turned it over on the post-up; it doesn't include possessions in which he passed the ball out of the post-up, even if it lead to an assist or hockey assist. To put it in context, the only non-bigs with more post-up possessions were Melo, Wiggins, LeBron, Westbrook, Kobe, Kawhi, Wade, Afflalo, and DeRozan.

In other words, Durant already has a post game that he can use to exploit smaller defenders. It just wasn't as effective in the playoffs. So yeah, he can polish it a bit more, get more confident in it, but his post game is already there to a large degree. He struggled against Iguodala, but everyone does, including LeBron.

As you mentioned, it would help to have a little more shooting around him. It's tougher for Durant to post up with a traditional 5 on the floor, as it puts the opposing 5 in an opportune position to double KD, forcing him to squeeze a pass through a web of arms and legs. If he dumps it off to Adams (or Kanter), you have to hope he's in position to finish before help rotates onto that 5; if Roberson is on the floor, it's almost a given that his defender is already going to be near that spot. If the ball is swung to an open Roberson 22 feet from the basket, defenses will live with that. Shooting--or lack of it--has a large ripple effect. As someone else said, if Roberson could get to 35%, that would be a major development.

 

[KBaden145]

1. Durant already has a post game that he can use to exploit smaller defenders.

2. It just wasn't as effective in the playoffs.

3. So yeah, he can polish it a bit more, get more confident in it...

4. his post game is already there to a large degree.

1. Maybe but 149 possessions in an 82 game season isn't much of one.

2. Besides the turnovers, the most glaring hole in his game...

3. A big understatement, IMO...

4. Whatever degree it is just isn't enough to counteract how teams choose to defend him at times.

It's ridiculous that he and the Thunder continue to avoid exploiting the mismatch teams offer them when they defend Durant with guards. It happens far more than 149 possessions in a season. I agree he can effective in the post ups and don't need to see numbers proving that. My point is there is a fairly big area where he can improve and help his team get easier shot attempts and/or more high % foul attempts. In the playoffs, you have to exploit match ups to get these easier attempts against higher level teams. They mentioned it in the exit interviews. More efficient playoff offense in the halfcourt against set defense is still an issue at times for this team and, with a player of Durants caliber and dimensions (in a sense), that's frustrating.




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