Big Twelve

[SoonerSpock]

Funny that you always want to define the comparisons. You want to compare Sherri to Kruger, except when you don't. You want to compare men to women using different standards. Yet, you tend to wish to ignore simple things in the pas, like the fact that we cancelled the women's program, exhibiting a lack of concern. Why is it that you only accept parameters that tend to make a coach who is in the Hall of Fame look inferior? I guess that it can't be that important that she is in the Hall of Fame.

Examine your parameters. We have a social war going on right now about people who didn't.

First you keep bring up OU cancelling the WBB program and wanting to give Sherri all the credit for bring it back. Let me remind you of the facts. Sherri became the head coach 7 years after OU dropped the program. They had two different coaches prior to Sherri and Burl Plunkett who proceeded her had a 59% winning percentage, won the women's NIT and went to the second round of the NCAA two years prior to Sherri's arrival.

What Sherri took over was not a team that had anything to do with a discontinued basketball program but one that had made the transition back to winning program. Plunkett was a long time high school coach at Byng and Idabel before retiring after 28 seasons for health reasons and it was known his tenure would be short when he took the OU job. He never coached again to my knowledge after retiring from OU.

Without question Sherri built the OU WBB program up to unprecedented level of play on the national level during her first 14 years but she did not revive a discontinued WBB program as you and the media keep want to keep singing.

Second I did not bring up the Kruger vs Sherri comparison. You did. Again with your initial statement in this thread that "Incidentally, after going to the Final Four, Kruger was ninth out of ten in the Big Twelve. Sherri has never been ninth out of ten, ninth out of twelve once. Since she went to the Final Four, what is her worst finish?" To which I responded "You constantly want to compare apples to oranges. MBB and WBB are two different sports played in two different competitive environments with different circumstances".

"But yes Kruger's team did have a down year in 2016-2017. And this year's team has rebounded with a 10-1 start and are only 1 win short of last year's total. Guess how he turned the team around? Recruiting! With Young on record as saying he originally thought he was going to Kentucky and narrowed his choices down to Kansas and OU".


To which you responded:

"Sherri brought in the #1 recruit in the nation in Courtney.

Name the last men's coach to bring in the #1 prospect in the nation.

Sherri brought in the #3 or #6 prospect in Ashley Paris, also from California.

Name the last men's coach to bring in the #3 prospect in the US.

Sherri brought in the #8 player in the US twice, in Amanda and now in Madison.

Name the last men's coach to bring in the #8 prospect in the nation.

Identify all of the Oklahoma prospects who Sherri lost who became All-American".

Followed by me saying"

"Typical attempt to first live in the past and second attempt to compare apples to oranges. WBB and MBB are two different sports with different competitive and recruiting environments. Trying to make that comparison is scrambling for a justification for the teams failures both on the court and the recruiting trail when none exist.

A realistic comparison would be another WBB program in the Big 12 with a history of being downtrodden at the same time as Sherri's team, got their program around at about the same time as the OU women, became very successful on a national basis at similar time to OU and recruits to a city similar to Norman except being further from a major metropolitan area and has to deals with its remoteness."

Now you tell me who is trying to push the Sherri vs Kruger issue and who is trying divert that issue as being off base?

Third I have never tried to demean Sherri's performance as the OU WBB coach. I have repeatedly over the years acknowledged her success during her first 14 years and acknowledge she is and should be a Hall of Fame coach. Although it is my opinion that that award should be awarded after retirement and include their entire coaching record.

But yes I have been critical of the fact she once controlled the conference and allowed Kim Mulkey to come in take over the conference dominance and become none competitive for 7 consecutive seasons on a conference championship and national level.

You want Sooner fans to be tickled with Sherri's performance when it is consistently about 80% of what it was during 2000-2010 when we won 6 regular season conference championships and 4 conference tournaments. During that period Baylor won 1 regular season and 2 conference championships. That is OU 10 and Baylor 3.

Since 2010 OU has won zero conference championships. Baylor has won 7 regular season championships and 6 tournament championships. That is Baylor 13 OU 0. Do you have any clue who has the competitive advantage today after 10 years of dominance. Clue it is not OU since 2011 we are 1-13 against the Bears last winning in 2014.

I am pleased you are content with our current team performance. I am not. I think Sherri needs to turn it around. Her recruiting is getting better but she still needs to get more top quality national players to consistently compete on a national level and have her team live up to the standards she set on the basketball court.

P.S. To answer your question about how many Oklahoma kids that Sherri missed on that became All Americans. The answer is about 2 less than the number of All Americans Sherri has brought to OU in 21 years. I apologize for the length of the post but have learned you sometimes need to be led by the hand otherwise you become confused.

 

[sooner8693]

Typical attempt to first live in the past and second attempt to compare apples to oranges. WBB and MBB are two different sports with different competitive and recruiting environments. Trying to make that comparison is scrambling for a justification for the teams failures both on the court and the recruiting trail when none exist.

A realistic comparison would be another WBB program in the Big 12 with a history of being downtrodden at the same time as Sherri's team, got their program around at about the same time as the OU women, became very successful on a national basis at similar time to OU and recruits to a city similar to Norman except being further from a major metropolitan area and has to deals with its remoteness.

But as you know OU is going to not compare favorably in any manner to the the Baylor Bears be it conference success or national success. Looking forward I expect that advantage to remain in Waco but I am hopeful some of the recent recruiting success can be enhanced and sustained with a championship or two and OU WBB and again being a top national program. It is difficult to accept that Sherri's last conference championship was in 2007 and we have not been to the Sweet 16 since 2013.

Sherri set the standard for OU WBB then forgot how to repeat her past success for almost a decade. The OU fan has not forgotten the expectations Sherri set and all it takes is a trip to LNC with its frequent 1,500-3,000 in attendance. That needs to end. It is her job to fix it!

+2

 

[sybarite]

Sorry, Spock. But, it is not apples and oranges. It is your attitude towards comparable accomplishments. The rest of your post I ignored.

 

[SoonerSpock]

Sorry, Spock. But, it is not apples and oranges. It is your attitude towards comparable accomplishments. The rest of your post I ignored.

I understand reality is over your head. But we all have known that for years.

 

[soonerstar]

Typical attempt to first live in the past and second attempt to compare apples to oranges. WBB and MBB are two different sports with different competitive and recruiting environments. Trying to make that comparison is scrambling for a justification for the teams failures both on the court and the recruiting trail when none exist.

A realistic comparison would be another WBB program in the Big 12 with a history of being downtrodden at the same time as Sherri's team, got their program around at about the same time as the OU women, became very successful on a national basis at similar time to OU and recruits to a city similar to Norman except being further from a major metropolitan area and has to deals with its remoteness.

But as you know OU is going to not compare favorably in any manner to the the Baylor Bears be it conference success or national success. Looking forward I expect that advantage to remain in Waco but I am hopeful some of the recent recruiting success can be enhanced and sustained with a championship or two and OU WBB and again being a top national program. It is difficult to accept that Sherri's last conference championship was in 2007 and we have not been to the Sweet 16 since 2013.

Sherri set the standard for OU WBB then forgot how to repeat her past success for almost a decade. The OU fan has not forgotten the expectations Sherri set and all it takes is a trip to LNC with its frequent 1,500-3,000 in attendance. That needs to end. It is her job to fix it!

+3

 

[sybarite]

I understand reality is over your head. But we all have known that for years.

And, you will never cease to insist that your "reality" has merit. Yet, intelligent man insists upon impartiality, a view without prejudice. You can't judge men by one set of standards and women by another and claim that it is apples and oranges. There is another name designated for that.

 

[SoonerSpock]

And, you will never cease to insist that your "reality" has merit. Yet, intelligent man insists upon impartiality, a view without prejudice. You can't judge men by one set of standards and women by another and claim that it is apples and oranges. There is another name designated for that.

Nor can I expect you understand that the criteria for the two games are not the same. And for certain you don't the Sooner women compared to teams in their on conference or other national contenders. As doing so exposes the truth and the folly of your fantasy that the MBB and WBB are the same.

 

[sybarite]

Nor can I expect you understand that the criteria for the two games are not the same. And for certain you don't the Sooner women compared to teams in their on conference or other national contenders. As doing so exposes the truth and the folly of your fantasy that the MBB and WBB are the same.

And, so, you don't feel the need to treat the evaluation of coaches equally? Isn't that convenient.

 

[SoonerSpock]

And, so, you don't feel the need to treat the evaluation of coaches equally? Isn't that convenient.

I definitely don't evaluate the expected performance of different coaches in different sports with the same expectations. It is called common sense. For certain the expectations of the fans of OU's football, men's gymnastics, women's gymnastics, softball, men's golf and men's tennis should not be the minimal expectations for all the other OU sports. It is not about equality of evaluation it is about evaluating each coach fairly considering the circumstances in each sport as it applies to their team.

 

[sybarite]

You keep trying the same end run. Sherri must be held accountable for not being able to do consistently what no man has ever done at OU, taken a basketball team to #1. She has recruited a #1 from our of state, several from the top ten, something that no man has done at OU in basketball. But, it is somehow different in that she is held to different standards because she is female in a female sport. The males in her sport at OU didn't come close to what she has done either.

You also tend to want to avoid the issue of the program cancellation as though that had no bearing. You have indicated that the recovery was enhanced by the male that preceded. Fascinating attitude.

If you examine most of the stories of Oklahoma U women's basketball, there is one thing that is mentioned that is almost never mentioned with respect to other schools. We cancelled the program. Now, we blame that on Donnie Duncan. I remember Duncan as being rather popular at the time. But, Duncan didn't do it in a vacuum. He would never have done that without the support and approval of the regents or the rest of the administration, probably members of the state government. It was an attitude that prevailed, just long enough to reveal itself. Once exposed, we've been running from it ever since.

But, frankly, we were still a total nonentity when Sherri took over. We hired a high school coach. Notre Dame was blasted for hiring a highschool football coach. But, we hired a highschool coach. Could we not attract the interest of one good assistant from the entire nation? Were we that low?

Probably.

But, while the nation has recognized her achievements and has made her the President of their coach's association and has elected her to the Hall of Fame at a rather young age, she is criticized by the people who arose in that environment which closed the program. When you have the best coach in the nation saying she did it the right way, it takes some audacity to be a "what have you done for me lately" type when we have fallen so far that we still haven't missed a tournament--yet---in sixteen years.

When you shut the door on someone's dreams and say they don't matter, you don't overcome that by a couple of winning seasons. The statement was made to young women that they were secondary, that they did not deserve the same opportunity to play at a university as did men. They didn't bring success to the university coffers. Someone forgot that a university provides for rather than takes from. A university teaches, gives, and enlightens. It provides opportunities. After not providing an equal opportunity in sports for almost a hundred years prior to Title IX, young women finally had the same rights as men. Someone shut that door. There is no way that those for whom the doors had just opened will ever forget. It was one of the most disgraceful things that the university has ever done.

The rest of the nation writes that in their stories about OU women's basketball. Look at Wikipedia, a leading line in the history of Oklahoma basketball. Exactly who do you think has forgotten?

 

[SoonerSpock]

You keep trying the same end run. Sherri must be held accountable for not being able to do consistently what no man has ever done at OU, taken a basketball team to #1. She has recruited a #1 from our of state, several from the top ten, something that no man has done at OU in basketball. But, it is somehow different in that she is held to different standards because she is female in a female sport. The males in her sport at OU didn't come close to what she has done either.

You also tend to want to avoid the issue of the program cancellation as though that had no bearing. You have indicated that the recovery was enhanced by the male that preceded. Fascinating attitude.

If you examine most of the stories of Oklahoma U women's basketball, there is one thing that is mentioned that is almost never mentioned with respect to other schools. We cancelled the program. Now, we blame that on Donnie Duncan. I remember Duncan as being rather popular at the time. But, Duncan didn't do it in a vacuum. He would never have done that without the support and approval of the regents or the rest of the administration, probably members of the state government. It was an attitude that prevailed, just long enough to reveal itself. Once exposed, we've been running from it ever since.

But, frankly, we were still a total nonentity when Sherri took over. We hired a high school coach. Notre Dame was blasted for hiring a highschool football coach. But, we hired a highschool coach. Could we not attract the interest of one good assistant from the entire nation? Were we that low?

Probably.

But, while the nation has recognized her achievements and has made her the President of their coach's association and has elected her to the Hall of Fame at a rather young age, she is criticized by the people who arose in that environment which closed the program. When you have the best coach in the nation saying she did it the right way, it takes some audacity to be a "what have you done for me lately" type when we have fallen so far that we still haven't missed a tournament--yet---in sixteen years.

When you shut the door on someone's dreams and say they don't matter, you don't overcome that by a couple of winning seasons. The statement was made to young women that they were secondary, that they did not deserve the same opportunity to play at a university as did men. They didn't bring success to the university coffers. Someone forgot that a university provides for rather than takes from. A university teaches, gives, and enlightens. It provides opportunities. After not providing an equal opportunity in sports for almost a hundred years prior to Title IX, young women finally had the same rights as men. Someone shut that door. There is no way that those for whom the doors had just opened will ever forget. It was one of the most disgraceful things that the university has ever done.

The rest of the nation writes that in their stories about OU women's basketball. Look at Wikipedia, a leading line in the history of Oklahoma basketball. Exactly who do you think has forgotten?

You are incapable of speaking the truth. You live with you head in the sand hearing things that were never said only imagined by your befuddled mind.

I never implied that Sherri should ever take OU to number 1 nor is that in anyway one of my expectations. I do expect Sherri's teams to approach performing on the nearly same level that they did for a decade. Nothing more or less. Note I said approach having a similar team to her 2000-2010 teams. Winning zero championships and going 1-13 against Baylor is not approaching the OU WBB standard set by Sherri Coale.

The OU basketball program was cancelled and restarted in matter of days. Two coaches each spent 3 years bringing OU back from be labelled as a cancelled program. Sherri's predecessor, Burl Plunkett went 59-36 the three years to Sherri go to the second round of the NCAA's and winning the women's NIT. Absolutely nothing comparable between a basketball program that has been cancelled and assumed by Gary Hudson and a basketball program Sherri inherited from Burl Plunkett who had a 59% winning record, a winning conference record, a post season tournament championship and an appearance in the NCCA 2nd round. Most any coach would relish taking over that kind of a program. Per usual you live in your fantasy.

Yes Sherri elevated OU WBB to a level it had never imagined at the time. Moreover she maintained that level for a decade. She was rightly named to the Hall of Fame. But guess what her career has continued and for the last 7 years it is far from the standard she established early in her career. The benchmark for her current performance should be measured against is the standard she set for her earlier teams. That performance had her teams on par with or above the rest of the conference annually. That is far from the case today and she needs to fix it. Nor are OU fans going to accept it. Many OU fans today want her gone and more will tomorrow if her teams continue to perform as they have for almost a decade. I don't want her gone I want her to turn the program around and become competitive with an occasional championship in the conference.

In your mind OU may have been a total nonentity when Sherri took over but the facts are no one wanted to hire a high school coach except Marita Hynes. The athletic department wanted an experienced college coach. Marita Hynes wanted Sherri, sold Sherri and got her wish. Quit trying to change history and make it appear all OU wanted to do was hire was a high school coach when the facts are that Hynes convinced the AD to take a different course and hire a high school coach instead of the other college coaches on their list. But then falsehoods and deceptionsare your M.O.

The issues of the programs cancellation has been behind us for decades. Virtually all women's athletic programs are highly focused on complete opportunity forl success for women in their program during their playing years and after they leave the university. That is not a unique capability inherent to only Sherri but to 100's of other women's college coaches.

The first criterion for success as a coach is win vs losses followed by championships. Following the rules, providing a suitable environment for opportunities on and off the court and community involvement are a given for all programs.

It was terrible that OU shutdown the WBB but it was Gary Hudson and Burl Plunkett that started the process of reopening those opportunities. Those actions took place almost three decades ago. We should learn from those mistakes and not make them in the future but those actions damn sure have no bearing on how the game is being played on the basketball court today.

Perhaps a conference or conference tourney championship in the next 2-3 years would do wonders in improving the attitude today's OU fan has regarding Sherri her teams performances. Hard to accept no conference championships a 1 win against 13 losses against your top WBB rival over the last 7 seasons and like it.

 

[sybarite]

You just have to have it where there were two guys who were responsible for recovery. Of course, they left it so barren that they lost by an average of 8 points in 95 and saddled Sherri with a team that only had five wins. But, they had begun the recovery. Funny. I don't see their names listed in any of those recovery stories except those of their own fans.

Meanwhile, it is still the lead paragraph in the Wikipedia story about OU basketball history.

Had a friend who was bullied a bit in HS by a more athletic kid. Guy spent the next fifteen years in the weight room and became quite strong. Went back twelve to fifteen years after HS to beat up the guy who had bullied him. Curiously, the bully had become successful in another state and was no longer there. May seem silly for a guy who has a Master's in Engineering to want to go back and beat someone up. But, the victim often never forgets. You don't get over rape of abuse either. And, you don't get over having your rights trampled after you finally get them. Haven't lived it down until it is no longer the lead in stories about OU history.

What does OU have; four Final Fours in a hundred twenty years of men's basketball. I guess they have only had playoffs for about eighty to ninety of those years. Sherri has three in twenty years. I'll begin to judge her in about sixty years.

 

[sooner8693]

You just have to have it where there were two guys who were responsible for recovery. Of course, they left it so barren that they lost by an average of 8 points in 95 and saddled Sherri with a team that only had five wins. But, they had begun the recovery. Funny. I don't see their names listed in any of those recovery stories except those of their own fans.

Meanwhile, it is still the lead paragraph in the Wikipedia story about OU basketball history.

Had a friend who was bullied a bit in HS by a more athletic kid. Guy spent the next fifteen years in the weight room and became quite strong. Went back twelve to fifteen years after HS to beat up the guy who had bullied him. Curiously, the bully had become successful in another state and was no longer there. May seem silly for a guy who has a Master's in Engineering to want to go back and beat someone up. But, the victim often never forgets. You don't get over rape of abuse either. And, you don't get over having your rights trampled after you finally get them. Haven't lived it down until it is no longer the lead in stories about OU history.

What does OU have; four Final Fours in a hundred twenty years of men's basketball. I guess they have only had playoffs for about eighty to ninety of those years. Sherri has three in twenty years. I'll begin to judge her in about sixty years.

Did a 10 year old write this?

 

[sybarite]

Did a 10 year old write this?

I'm a bit tired of you, and I have yet to read a post that was of interest in any way. So, you are on ignore. Continue your usual.

 

[SoonerSpock]

To be expected. Eventually you generally curl your tail between your legs and go away as confused as you were when you opened your mouth and inserted your foot.

 

[sybarite]

To be expected. Eventually you generally curl your tail between your legs and go away as confused as you were when you opened your mouth and inserted your foot.

You have a great tendency to attempt to claim victory out of a weak argument. You have done nothing other than to exhibit the arguments that reveal the attitude that defines why the nation still lists the cancellation of the program as a defining moment. The program was cancelled for a lack of understanding of the role and reasons for Title IX, somewhat revealing the attitude that the programs were apples and oranges. It persists.

 

[Mac]

Buddy was a four year guy, not a JR college player

I think Sherri is a good person, passionate coach and she's decent with x's and O's...

I don't see her losing her job anytime soon, and the effort the team played vs Uconn set us up to make the post season...

OU was a dominating between 2001-2010, during that time Sherri had 2 of the best players in the history of the big 12 in Dales, and Paris...

But now Baylor and Kim set the bar high built on the shoulders of Griner.
Kim kept bringing in talented top 10 players while OU wasn't able to keep up the recruiting... IMO thats what it comes down to, now matter how you want to see it, Sherri has't been able to bring talent to Norman in a long time...

 

[Sweetest OU Girl]

We have dug a deep hole for ourselves this year. And it is not being reasonable to be too confident we can extend our streak of entries into the field of 64.

Could it happen? Of course. Is it very likely? Not likely. If we finish with 10 wins in the conference, we will be 15-14 I believe. If we win 12 conference games, we will be 17-12. By the way, we have won over 11 conference games just 3 times in the last 10 years.

I have tried to explain several times that you simply cannot schedule almost all non-conference games on the road - and against good teams at that - and expect to have the 9 or 10 wins you need as you enter conference play.

I do not compare us to Baylor in any sport. They are a renegade school in athletics. They cheat at WBB (only school I recall who was sanctioned for cheating in recruiting when they signed Griner et al), they allowed a massive sexual assault rampage in football, and even had one MBB player kill another if I recall correctly.

I refuse to consider them worthy of consideration. You support whoever you choose.

I support OU.

 

[SoonerSpock]

You have a great tendency to attempt to claim victory out of a weak argument. You have done nothing other than to exhibit the arguments that reveal the attitude that defines why the nation still lists the cancellation of the program as a defining moment. The program was cancelled for a lack of understanding of the role and reasons for Title IX, somewhat revealing the attitude that the programs were apples and oranges. It persists.

Typical Syb response. You think you know more why decisions are made than do the decision makers because you know all. Fortunately all do not live in your fantasy world and the world has you holding up in a metroplex suburb where you your viewpoint is easily ignored..

 

[sybarite]

Typical Syb response. You think you know more why decisions are made than do the decision makers because you know all. Fortunately all do not live in your fantasy world and the world has you holding up in a metroplex suburb where you your viewpoint is easily ignored..

Actually, my point included that the decision-makers had been correct. If you wanted to have a discussion with a winner, the opening statement was not the most productive. You indicated that I was comparing apples and oranges.

We had spent a lot of years with apples and oranges, the apples having the opportunity to participate in sports. Finally, we made it clear that we had matured enough as a society to provide equal opportunity, i.e., Title IX. Finally, there was no recognized distinction between apples and oranges.

Unfortunately, some decided to ignore that and made that distinction again, cancelling the program. The public outcry informed them that they could no longer distinguish between apples and oranges. They are to be treated equally.

When you try to evaluate them differently by stating that it is the difference between apples and oranges, it refers us back to the time during which we distinguished between apples and oranges or to the attitudes that led to the cancellation. Rinse and repeat. It's probably time to give a firm wash to the attitudes which think it is acceptable to distinguish between apples and oranges.