Can you guys explain some Trump things to me?

[BCSooners]

For those of you who consider yourself a democrat where do you stand on statues being pulled down. I hear that George Washington and Thomas Jefferson statues are on the removal list. And if there is a movement to remove these statues would the Washington Monument and Jefferson Memorial be removed or at least shuttered to visitors. What are your thoughts?

Columbus & Andrew Jackson shouldn’t have a statue anywhere, neither should any confederate leader.

Jefferson is tricky and I would lean on the side of keeping his monument. He owned hundreds of slaves which is what the controversy is about. He was also the main founding father in getting slavery abolished in the North & viewing “all men as equal”.

I’m putting Washington in the same boat as Jefferson even though he wasn’t as vocal over his disapproval of slaves & held slaves until his death.

 

[mict085]

Columbus & Andrew Jackson shouldn’t have a statue anywhere, neither should any confederate leader.

Jefferson is tricky and I would lean on the side of keeping his monument. He owned hundreds of slaves which is what the controversy is about. He was also the main founding father in getting slavery abolished in the North & viewing “all men as equal”.

I’m putting Washington in the same boat as Jefferson even though he wasn’t as vocal over his disapproval of slaves & held slaves until his death.

I don’t think the destruction of historical monuments should be supported at all. They belong in a museum. Right or wrong, it’s our history and it should be preserved. I don’t approve of what they did either, but there’s a right way and a wrong way to go about this. Mob mentality and violence should never be tolerated.

 

[BCSooners]

I don’t think the destruction of historical monuments should be supported at all. They belong in a museum. Right or wrong, it’s our history and it should be preserved. I don’t approve of what they did either, but there’s a right way and a wrong way to go about this. Mob mentality and violence should never be tolerated.

The question was should they be pulled down. The statues I mentioned in the 1st paragraph should be pulled down. They should be in history books but I wouldn’t recommend they be put in a museum. I don’t think those men mentioned should have any statues at all commemorating them.

 

[thebigabd]

Biden has been in public office for almost 50 years and hasn’t accomplished a damn thing

Getting bills enacted is actually very difficult, and not something that any one Senator can do alone, by design of course. Something like 3% of introduced legislation becomes law. Senators don't get to declare Executive Orders like a President, so your characterization that he hasn't done anything isn't fair.

That being said, Biden was the primary sponsor on many bills that have become law over the years, and of course did his job as a Senator in supporting hundreds (maybe thousands) of different initiatives.

For example, Chuck Grassley (Republican) has been in Congress since 1980. He was the primary sponsor on 87 bills that became law. Susan Collins (Republican) has been the primary sponsor on 38 bills and has been in Congress for 24 years. Chuck Schumer (Democrat - New York) is the primary sponsor on 59 bills that became law, while Mitch McConnell (Republican - Kentucky) was the primary sponsor on 25 bills that became law. Biden was the primary sponsor on 42 bills that became law.

I know a reasonable expectation on the performance of a Senator isn't relative to your hate for him or the party, but the notion that he hasn't accomplished anything is simply not true. You just have to understand what a Senator is, and what a Senator does.

And of course, as VP, he worked to accomplish a lot. Obama and Biden led the US out of the economic recession they inherited from George Bush. They rebuilt the economy. Set the stage of major changes in healthcare. While Obamacare has been cut at the knees instead of fixed, it put us on a path to something better. They created a peace deal with Iran.They worked with our allies far more effectively than Trump does. It's pretty clear our allies have very little respect for Trump.

Considering what Obama/Biden inherited in 2008, you would think you would have a little respect for what was done. By 2016 the country was absolutely stronger, and way better than where they found it in 2008. If you don't remember, the DOW had essentially crashed all the way down to about 6,000 when they took over. The DOW rose 148% during their terms, with a high near 20,000 when they were done.

On the other hand, Trump didn't inherit a recession. Trump inherited an economy that saw job gains for 75 straight months and a stock market that was literally at an all-time high. The Obama/Biden stock market broke all sorts of records (118 records, to be exact), and the Trump economy has extended that run.

Those are the facts... love him or hate him, a lot of the Trump political strategy is to make something a problem, and then do things to fix it. The economy wasn't broken when Trump took over... How could it be? The markets were at all time highs, 75 straight months of job gains, etc... Trump has to have an enemy. That's just his style.... and in order to get support for that, he has to call problems very loudly, and as many times as he possibly can... Immigration, military, taxes, the media, etc... He had to basically declare that all our systems were broken, and that he was the man to fix them. None of those things were broken at all, but again, Trump's political game is to make everything seem dire, seem catastrophic, and make people seem like victims..

Everyone has been "ripping us off"..... everyone cheats us.... All our leadership for decades has been stupid and played like fools.... He's the only smart one.... Everything is broken, but don't worry, I alone can fix it...

None of that stuff is true, but people have really bought into it. He's turned himself into a savior of sorts, by first convincing people that everything was broken, when it really wasn't.

Pretty interesting psychology to his style, but I digress.

 

[SoonerBounce13]

Columbus & Andrew Jackson shouldn’t have a statue anywhere, neither should any confederate leader.

Jefferson is tricky and I would lean on the side of keeping his monument. He owned hundreds of slaves which is what the controversy is about. He was also the main founding father in getting slavery abolished in the North & viewing “all men as equal”.

I’m putting Washington in the same boat as Jefferson even though he wasn’t as vocal over his disapproval of slaves & held slaves until his death.

Columbus is a hero and a good man...don't listen to the main stream media's take. So many people are unaware of the real columbus. Go read his diary

 

[thebigabd]

Let democracy decide this at the local level. If a local community votes to change the name of a school named after Robert E. Lee, then it is the will of the people who actually live in that community, who's kids go to that school, who made a change.

On Capitol grounds, have a vote in the house and senate. Should we remove confederate statues and symbols from Capitol grounds? Vote yes or no. Congress represents the people, as is the design of a representative democracy. Have a debate, and then have a vote, and we move on.

As is usually the case, democracy will solve the problem.

 

[sheepdogs1]

Let democracy decide this at the local level. If a local community votes to change the name of a school named after Robert E. Lee, then it is the will of the people who actually live in that community, who's kids go to that school, who made a change.

On Capitol grounds, have a vote in the house and senate. Should we remove confederate statues and symbols from Capitol grounds? Vote yes or no. Congress represents the people, as is the design of a representative democracy. Have a debate, and then have a vote, and we move on.

As is usually the case, democracy will solve the problem.

Democracy can be fickle. Regardless of your age, when was Thomas Jefferson not a slave owner?"

 

[BCSooners]

Columbus is a hero and a good man...don't listen to the main stream media's take. So many people are unaware of the real columbus. Go read his diary

This is insane. It’s not the media, it’s factual history.

 

[WTSooner]

This is insane. It’s not the media, it’s factual history.

I guess with all of the wars and battle for land centuries ago, NOBODY from that time period can be viewed as anything but a monster, right?

 

[SoonerBounce13]

This is insane. It’s not the media, it’s factual history.

You are wrong. History isn't black and white. I challenge you to go read his thoughts and diaries. Go read about the people he was fighting with. Go look at what actions they were doing.

 

[SoonerBounce13]

https://www.usatoday.com/story/opin...s-xx-my-ancestor-wasnt-evil-column/744333001/

 

[thebigabd]

Democracy can be fickle. Regardless of your age, when was Thomas Jefferson not a slave owner?"

You should read "Democracy and its Critics" by Robert Dahl.... One of my favorite books of all time. Dahl is basically the leading expert on Democracy. Very interesting read, if you are into that kind of thing.

His writings have had a huge impact on my world-view and political leanings. I've read 2-3 of his books.

 

[sheepdogs1]

You should read "Democracy and its Critics" by Robert Dahl.... One of my favorite books of all time. Dahl is basically the leading expert on Democracy. Very interesting read, if you are into that kind of thing.

His writings have had a huge impact on my world-view and political leanings. I've read 2-3 of his books.

Thanks for the suggestion. Now it's time for me to suggest. Could you please answer my question.

 

[thebigabd]

Thanks for the suggestion. Now it's time for me to suggest. Could you please answer my question.

Oh, sorry, didn't mean to dodge it... To my knowledge Thomas Jefferson was never not a slave owner. Slavery was unfortunately a huge part of our history, and was a widely accepted practice for a long time. That doesn't mean Thomas Jefferson or the other founders should be erased from history... You have to put things in historical context.

Thomas Jefferson is actually my favorite founder, in terms of his thoughts and ideas on governance at the time.

As for Confederate leadership.... that is a different deal. Not because of the history itself, but because of what it represents today. It is generally accepted that flying a Confederate flag today is a symbol for white supremacy... Nobody is truly honoring the history of the Confederacy by flying that flag. It's not even a country, it's not a state, we don't pledge allegiance to it, etc. It's a symbol. As for Confederate statues, again, I have already made my preference on that known. Let the people in the community decide by vote.

 

[sheepdogs1]

Oh, sorry, didn't mean to dodge it... To my knowledge Thomas Jefferson was never not a slave owner. Slavery was unfortunately a huge part of our history, and was a widely accepted practice for a long time. That doesn't mean Thomas Jefferson or the other founders should be erased from history... You have to put things in historical context.

Thomas Jefferson is actually my favorite founder, in terms of his thoughts and ideas on governance at the time.

As for Confederate leadership.... that is a different deal. Not because of the history itself, but because of what it represents today. It is generally accepted that flying a Confederate flag today is a symbol for white supremacy... Nobody is truly honoring the history of the Confederacy by flying that flag. It's not even a country, it's not a state, we don't pledge allegiance to it, etc. It's a symbol. As for Confederate statues, again, I have already made my preference on that known. Let the people in the community decide by vote.

The question I asked was "when in your life was TJ not a slave owner."

 

[thebigabd]

I thought of an interesting scenario last night while I was reading a book..... what if American slavery and persecution wasn't race-related, but instead, religious based... As in, let's say that America was founded by atheists, but they went to parts of the world and literally kidnapped Christians and forced them into slavery for a few hundred years.

Then a civil war was fought in the 1860's, largely to free Christian slaves.... President Lincoln gave a speech to emancipate the Christians.. and after the war was over and the slaves were freed, Christians basically became second class citizens (at best) for a long period of time.

And around the country there were statues of all these Atheist leaders and generals who enslaved, raped, murdered, and tortured Christians...

Fast forward to now..... how accepting would the Christian community be of those statues? Of the Atheist flag flying at public events like Nascar races, monster truck rallies, etc... Of schools their kids go to being named after Atheist leadership.

Would the Christian community be calling for those to stay up in honor of the history? Or just accept it as part of history? Or do you think that after it was all said and done, the Christian community would want the statues of their oppressors taken down?

Same scenario, but just sub out the oppressed group from African Americans to Christians.

Does it change anything?

 

[sheepdogs1]

I thought of an interesting scenario last night while I was reading a book..... what if American slavery and persecution wasn't race-related, but instead, religious based... As in, let's say that America was founded by atheists, but they went to parts of the world and literally kidnapped Christians and forced them into slavery for a few hundred years.

Then a civil war was fought in the 1860's, largely to free Christian slaves.... President Lincoln gave a speech to emancipate the Christians.. and after the war was over and the slaves were freed, Christians basically became second class citizens (at best) for a long period of time.

And around the country there were statues of all these Atheist leaders and generals who enslaved, raped, murdered, and tortured Christians...

Fast forward to now..... how accepting would the Christian community be of those statues? Of the Atheist flag flying at public events like Nascar races, monster truck rallies, etc... Of schools their kids go to being named after Atheist leadership.

Would the Christian community be calling for those to stay up in honor of the history? Or just accept it as part of history? Or do you think that after it was all said and done, the Christian community would want the statues of their oppressors taken down?

Same scenario, but just sub out the oppressed group from African Americans to Christians.

Does it change anything?

Do you feel at home reading up on history and watching historical documentaries on the tube? I ask for a friend named "Tim." Get it???????????

 

[steverocks35]

I thought of an interesting scenario last night while I was reading a book..... what if American slavery and persecution wasn't race-related, but instead, religious based... As in, let's say that America was founded by atheists, but they went to parts of the world and literally kidnapped Christians and forced them into slavery for a few hundred years.

Then a civil war was fought in the 1860's, largely to free Christian slaves.... President Lincoln gave a speech to emancipate the Christians.. and after the war was over and the slaves were freed, Christians basically became second class citizens (at best) for a long period of time.

And around the country there were statues of all these Atheist leaders and generals who enslaved, raped, murdered, and tortured Christians...

Fast forward to now..... how accepting would the Christian community be of those statues? Of the Atheist flag flying at public events like Nascar races, monster truck rallies, etc... Of schools their kids go to being named after Atheist leadership.

Would the Christian community be calling for those to stay up in honor of the history? Or just accept it as part of history? Or do you think that after it was all said and done, the Christian community would want the statues of their oppressors taken down?

Same scenario, but just sub out the oppressed group from African Americans to Christians.

Does it change anything?

Of course it would. Also, let's realize why we have these statues. There wasn't some massive outcry by the population to commemorate these traitors and losers. One particular lobbying group raised money and installed statues and memorials all over the South, the United Daughters of the Confederacy. This isn't history, it's a PR campaign. We can teach the history of the Civil War without glorifying traitors and slavery.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Daughters_of_the_Confederacy

 

[BCSooners]

You are wrong. History isn't black and white. I challenge you to go read his thoughts and diaries. Go read about the people he was fighting with. Go look at what actions they were doing.

I guess with all of the wars and battle for land centuries ago, NOBODY from that time period can be viewed as anything but a monster, right?

He colonized lands and almost wiped out 3 different countries populations. He was the biggest slave trader, mutilated prisoners, & literally worked tens of thousands to death. Yes there were many monsters of the time.

 

[steverocks35]

He colonized lands and almost wiped out 3 different countries populations. He was the biggest slave trader, mutilated prisoners, & literally worked tens of thousands to death. Yes there were many monsters of the time.

He was stripped of his powers by Queen Isabella and King Ferdinand because he was a genocidal maniac. Imagine being to awful to be the governor of the West Indies in 1500.