Capel has signed 8 players who didnt play more than 2 seasons

[McG78]

Hell no! I want him to keep bringing the MCDAA's in! I just worry that Oklahoma (unlike North Carolina or UCLA) wont be able to keep up with the attrition.

Are the 4 year guys he signs good enough to take over once the stars are gone?

Example: If no MCDAA is signed OU MIGHT field a team like this next year.

PG: Tommy Mason-Griffin
SG: Cade Davis
SG: Ray Willis
PF: Andy Fitz
C: Orlando

Now, that team may not even make the NCAA Tournament. Thats an example of where the attrition could catch up with you if you go a year without landing the studs. Thats also a very real possibility... OU isnt Duke, and we dont know if he can bring in MCDAAs that can come in right away every season.

Thats the point of this thread. When all your important recruits play a year or two and you dont reload them every year or two, you risk having a year where all your role players become starters.



Just pointing out the attrition.

No negative motive here fellas, lol.

This and the "I don't want one and done" mentality are what is wrong with OU basketball. I will risk having an NIT year every so often to get the talent it takes to win a National Championship. Truth is what ABD calls role players are the typical four year players. If you recruit goes that are going to stay for three to four years, you are recruiting role players. So either way you end up in ABD's worst case scenario.

Additionally, what makes someone think we cannot consistently land the big recruits? In Capel's first full three years of recruiting, he has landed 4 MAAs. How many other teams can say they have 4 MAAs in the last three years? Not that many. Trust me if you get guys to the league, you win a national championship, or both, you will not have a problem getting top talent.

Stop all this worrying about what ifs. Let's worry about one thing winning a championship.

P.S. Someone mentioned Capel's results. I can only think this is a reference to Sampson's consistency. Sampson may have been consistent but he didn't coach entertaining basketball, and I never felt like we were national championship contenders at the start of any season. He had two great years other than that his NCAA performance was pretty below average.

 

[McG78]

I'd have minded greatly -- Blake had a really good freshman season but not a great one, and we'd have been hurting last season without him.

I'm not sure we won't be hurting a bit this season without him -- we'll see how the play in the paint comes together.

And I don't think you can ever count on recruiting remaining consistently top-notch, and that's no swipe at Coach Capel. It's a cyclical thing, and even the best coaches experience high and low points in recruiting.

We saw it under our previous two head coaches, too.

So because there is a risk we can't keep it up, we should not do it in the first place? That is moronic. If someone said we shouldn't recruit five-star football players because there is a risk we can't keep it up and will eventually have a down year. Everyone on here would say that is crazy we are Oklahoma. We will always get the top football talent. It goes the same for basketball.

Don't by into all the people that say OU is a football school. We are rich in basketball tradition. We can and will always be a place kids want to play basketball once the fans starting believing.

 

[AdaSooner]

Thats the point of this thread. When all your important recruits play a year or two and you dont reload them every year or two, you risk having a year where all your role players become starters.



Just pointing out the attrition.

No negative motive here fellas, lol.

Capel has proven he has the goods to bring in top recruits every season, and I have faith in our coaching staff's ability to continue that trend. One only has to check the list of players we're in on in 2010 to find that easy to believe, plus we already have a commitment from a highly-rated recruit in the 2011 class.

Attrition is Maze, Clark, Pattillo, Cannon and Early who failed to fulfill the requirements necessary to retain their scholarships. Neysmith was recruited over and decided to transfer. I see that as a positive. Attrition, maybe. But definitely not a departure to be concerned about.

There is no way to take anything but positives from the two years Blake gave OU or from WW and Tiny's time as Sooners, even if they leave after two years. As far as I'm concerned, there are only five players who could be counted in the attrition rate. That's roughly 1.5 players per season.

Now, if that trend continues, it might be time to worry. But, three of those players (Maze, Pattillo and Cannon) were brought in to fill a need as last minute signings, when OU didn't get the players they really wanted. I don't see that happening too many more times now that Coach Capel and his staff have established themselves on the recruiting circuit, and the Sooners are being considered by some of the top recruits in the country.

 

[thebigabd]

When you recruit elite players like that, more great players will follow.

I dont think we know if that is true at Oklahoma. It is at Duke, North Carolina, UCLA, and Kansas, but we dont know at OU.

We will see how this years class plays out, and hopefully he lands some big time talents. I don't know why he wouldnt, but you never know.

 

[McG78]

I would much rather be losing the guys we have lost over the last couple of years and for the reasons they left rather than the guys Sampson lost in his later years. For instance, Jimmy Tobias, Brandon Foust, Larry Turner, Drew Lavendar, and De'Angelo Alexander.

 

[skyvue]

This and the "I don't want one and done" mentality are what is wrong with OU basketball. I will risk having an NIT year every so often to get the talent it takes to win a National Championship.

How many teams have won a title with a one-and-done player playing a key role? Some, but not many. You need players who are going to remain committed to the program, who care about the team and the tradition and not just their stats, who are looking to spend some time maturing and improving their game. Schools like UNC, Duke and KU actually get those kind of players; they usually manage to convince their stars to stay three or four years, and it pays off in spades.

That's what I want at OU. Guys who leave after a single season won't help us that much, and even players leaving after two years can come back to bite us eventually. Blake was the exception, not the rule (and his impact on our program would have been SIGNIFICANTLY lessened if he'd left after his freshman year). We need committed players who will stay a minimum of two -- and preferably three or four -- years to help us build some consistency and a deep roster.

As for "entertaining basketball," wins are entertaining. Period.

 

[thebigabd]

Skyvue,

Would you say Missouri is a good example? Here you have a team that won 31 games last year, won the Big 12 tournament, beat OU, and made it just as far as Oklahoma in the NCAA Tournament (nearly beating UCONN and advancing to the Final Four)...

They did this without a single 4-star player on roster. Lyons, Safford, Carroll, Tiller, Bowers, Denmon, English, Ramsey, Lawrence, etc were all lower rated players. Not one of them was a 4-star guy, and Zaire Taylor and Matt Lawrence werent even ranked! The rest were 3-star guys.

Yet, they put a big time team on the floor because of their experience and how well those guys fit into Andersons system.

JT Tiller- 3 year starter
Zaire Taylor- 3 year D-1 starter
Matt Lawrence- 4 year player
Leo Lyons- 4 year player
Demarre Carrolle- 4 year D-1 starter

Missouri had a better year than Oklahoma with no lottery picks, no 4-star players, no #1 picks, no Mcdonalds All-Americans, no Jordan All-Americans, etc.

 

[SoonerNorm]

You have to keep in mind there is a difference in what high school players say and what they actually do when they get to college. Many want to be one and done coming out of high school but after a year of so of college, they usually realize that college is a lot of fun and they need to improve their skills so they make the decision to hang around a little longer. I certainly don't mind recruiting guys who say they want to be one and done because many times they end up staying 2, 3, or 4 years. If one happens to actually leave after only 1 year every few years, I can certainly live with that. I believe that Jeff could use him as an example to recruit more top players who think they want to hurry and get to the league, knowing full well the kid will likely change his mind. Once a kid gets to OU, regardless of what he said previously, he has a good chance of staying more than one year.

 

[McG78]

How many teams have won a title with a one-and-done player playing a key role? Some, but not many. You need players who are going to remain committed to the program, who care about the team and the tradition and not just their stats, who are looking to spend some time maturing and improving their game. Schools like UNC, Duke and KU actually get those kind of players; they usually manage to convince their stars to stay three or four years, and it pays off in spades.

That's what I want at OU. Guys who leave after a single season won't help us that much, and even players leaving after two years can come back to bite us eventually. Blake was the exception, not the rule (and his impact on our program would have been SIGNIFICANTLY lessened if he'd left after his freshman year). We need committed players who will stay a minimum of two -- and preferably three or four -- years to help us build some consistency and a deep roster.

As for "entertaining basketball," wins are entertaining. Period.

It is hard to say "one and dones" don't win championships because the rule is so new. A better measure is how many one and dones have significantly improved their teams performance. I think that number is significantly higher than the number fo four year players that significantly altered a teams fortune.

Kelvin won, but based on attendance it wasn't entertaining. Period. There is a difference between winning and winning plus the chance to compete for a championship. If you honestly believe that Kelvin's style of basketball and recruits gave us a better shot at a National Championship, you are sorely mistaken. A few years back, I compared OU's 1988 scoring average compared to the national average in 1988 and the scoring average of the sweet sixteen teams to the national average in 2006. OU in 1988 averaged about 20 more points per game than the national average. In 2006, every team in the sweet sixteen except for UCLA averaged about 20 more points than the national average that year. The point is that you have to score the ball to be competitive at the national level. Sampson never grasp this concept.

In fact, Sampson's style which allowed us to beat some superior teams also got us beat by some inferior teams. When you limit your offensive possession, a few scoreless trips for you and a few big trips for your opponent puts you behind the eight ball. Especially when you consider how except for the year Terry Evans was on the staff, Sampson could not coach a press.

On a related note, how many times do you remember Sampson blowing a 12+ point lead (Kansas his last year for example) and how many times do you remeber Sampson coming back from a 12+ point deficit? I think you will remember way more blown leads than comebacks.

While I'm bashing Sampson, anyone who's inbounds plays consist of throwing it to half court isn't a very good coach. Inbounds plays are the best opportunities because the defense can't pressure the guy with the ball.

 

[McG78]

Skyvue,

Would you say Missouri is a good example? Here you have a team that won 31 games last year, won the Big 12 tournament, beat OU, and made it just as far as Oklahoma in the NCAA Tournament (nearly beating UCONN and advancing to the Final Four)...

They did this without a single 4-star player on roster. Lyons, Safford, Carroll, Tiller, Bowers, Denmon, English, Ramsey, Lawrence, etc were all lower rated players. Not one of them was a 4-star guy, and Zaire Taylor and Matt Lawrence werent even ranked! The rest were 3-star guys.

Yet, they put a big time team on the floor because of their experience and how well those guys fit into Andersons system.

JT Tiller- 3 year starter
Zaire Taylor- 3 year D-1 starter
Matt Lawrence- 4 year player
Leo Lyons- 4 year player
Demarre Carrolle- 4 year D-1 starter

Missouri had a better year than Oklahoma with no lottery picks, no 4-star players, no #1 picks, no Mcdonalds All-Americans, no Jordan All-Americans, etc.

If you are really saying you would want 3 star players who will stay for four years over MAAs, there is not point in talking because that is extremely moronic. How many teams that made it to the elite eight last year had no MAAs on it. One, maybe two. I would rather be in the 6 of 8 number.

 

[thebigabd]

If you are really saying you would want 3 star players who will stay for four years over MAAs, there is not point in talking because that is extremely moronic.

There is a difference between MAA's and guys you know dont belong in college and leave after a year. Of course recruit the best players though..

How many teams that made it to the elite eight last year had no MAAs on it. One, maybe two. I would rather be in the 6 of 8 number.

I want OU to recruit the best player possible, but I dont think OU can keep up with the attrition IF some of these guys go pro. It possibly sets OU up for some bad years if they dont keep reloading the studs.

 

[Sid]

Whats wrong with the court results in Norman? Capel has improved OU's record every year and continues to add MAA's which will most likely lead to more success on the court.

I could care less if guys leave as long as they aren't leaving us for reasons other than going pro, discipline issues (including grades), or because they were recruited over.

What is the point of this thread? Hey big why don't you do this for all the division one basketball teams and see how many of them there are that have gone through this. Welcome to the world of division one basketball. It will continue to happen. BOOMER SOONER BABY!!!

exactly. lumping blake, ww and gallon in with early, maze, neysmith and cannon makes me think he doesn't want capel recruiting the nation's top players.

When you recruit elite players like that, more great players will follow.

Capel has proven he has the goods to bring in top recruits every season, and I have faith in our coaching staff's ability to continue that trend. One only has to check the list of players we're in on in 2010 to find that easy to believe, plus we already have a commitment from a highly-rated recruit in the 2011 class.

This and the "I don't want one and done" mentality are what is wrong with OU basketball.

Additionally, what makes someone think we cannot consistently land the big recruits? In Capel's first full three years of recruiting, he has landed 4 MAAs. How many other teams can say they have 4 MAAs in the last three years? Not that many. Trust me if you get guys to the league, you win a national championship, or both, you will not have a problem getting top talent.

Stop all this worrying about what ifs. Let's worry about one thing winning a championship.

:clap

Those are some great comments. Slowly but surely the lunch pail attitude is starting to fade away. The bottom line is I want Jeff to evaluate and recruit the best players possible for the program. I don't care if he has to go all the way to Siberia to get them. If he has to go up against the likes of Duke, NC, KU and UCLA in order to bring the best players to Norman, so be it. One of the traits I like about our coach is he doesn’t have an INFERIORITY COMPLEX and he certainly doesn’t have a LUNCH PAIL mentality. It will be a GREAT day for Oklahoma basketball when we can FINALLY hang a NC banner in the LNC. Regardless of what anybody else hopes or thinks, it will happen sooner than later.

:boomer:sooner

 

[Sam]

I dont think we know if that is true at Oklahoma. It is at Duke, North Carolina, UCLA, and Kansas, but we dont know at OU.

We will see how this years class plays out, and hopefully he lands some big time talents. I don't know why he wouldnt, but you never know.

It is already coming true at Oklahoma.
Blake brought in Willie.
Willie and Blake brought in TMG and Tiny.
I expect this trend to continue here.

 

[thebigabd]

I suppose debating about OU's players being too good is better than debating about them not being good enough.

 

[SoonerBackInOKC]

Entertaining thread! I do believe that one-and-done type guys will continue to attract those type players every year. First, you will probably be seen very often, have a success as a team and great crowds to watch future NBA stars play.

The recent National Champions have all had "short-timers" and have also been fortunate to have a guy or two opt to come back that would've been a first round pick.

 

[AdaSooner]

I suppose debating about OU's players being too good is better than debating about them not being good enough.

Now you're using language I can understand and agree with! :woot

 

[campbest]

My thoughts:

- You try to recruit the best players, year in and year out, as long as they are willing to play for OU and the system Capel has implemented. This doesn't mean all one and done players are thinking of the NBA only, there are elite level prospects who want to get to the NBA ASAP and can fit into the team environment. Of course there are those who probably don't care much about collegiate basketball, but there are those who will focus on winning as well. Those are the players Capel needs to target.

- I agree with ABD, there is no guarantee OU is going to land MDAA's every year, especially when we are competing with KU, Duke, Carolina, UT, etc. However, with UT beginning to broaden it's recruiting base more and more, I can see a trend where OU is going to be able to pluck top players from within Texas on a regular basis. I would attribute much of Baylor's recent recruiting success to this.

- I feel the type of player which will help OU grow as a program (in addition to those who make a splash in the NBA) are the Pledgers in each recruiting class. Obviously, he hasn't played a second under Capel, but the kid is highly regarded and not an elite prospect. These are the kids whom make or break your programs, because they are the constant variable. If you continually receive committments from players ranked in the 50-150 range with a MDAA or two sprinkled in, you have a legitimate championship program.

- Need a few role players here and there to help in certain situations and keep practices competitive. These are the types of players who will choose OU because they want to be part of the program and the opportunity to compete for a spot, instead of opting for playing time elsewhere. (see: Cade Davis)

All in all, it's tough to really know whether a top prospect is ready for the NBA until they have success late in their freshman season or draft camps. As a coach, you can't worry about that on the recruiting trail, more often than not, players who say they are "one and done" before they reach college, will not take that route.

Also, if Capel is landing two MDAA's every year, he will not be at OU very long...it's a double edged sword for me because I love having him on our sideline.

 

[AdaSooner]

My thoughts:

- You try to recruit the best players, year in and year out, as long as they are willing to play for OU and the system Capel has implemented. This doesn't mean all one and done players are thinking of the NBA only, there are elite level prospects who want to get to the NBA ASAP and can fit into the team environment. Of course there are those who probably don't care much about collegiate basketball, but there are those who will focus on winning as well. Those are the players Capel needs to target.

- I agree with ABD, there is no guarantee OU is going to land MDAA's every year, especially when we are competing with KU, Duke, Carolina, UT, etc. However, with UT beginning to broaden it's recruiting base more and more, I can see a trend where OU is going to be able to pluck top players from within Texas on a regular basis. I would attribute much of Baylor's recent recruiting success to this.

- I feel the type of player which will help OU grow as a program (in addition to those who make a splash in the NBA) are the Pledgers in each recruiting class. Obviously, he hasn't played a second under Capel, but the kid is highly regarded and not an elite prospect. These are the kids whom make or break your programs, because they are the constant variable. If you continually receive committments from players ranked in the 50-150 range with a MDAA or two sprinkled in, you have a legitimate championship program.

- Need a few role players here and there to help in certain situations and keep practices competitive. These are the types of players who will choose OU because they want to be part of the program and the opportunity to compete for a spot, instead of opting for playing time elsewhere. (see: Cade Davis)

All in all, it's tough to really know whether a top prospect is ready for the NBA until they have success late in their freshman season or draft camps. As a coach, you can't worry about that on the recruiting trail, more often than not, players who say they are "one and done" before they reach college, will not take that route.

Also, if Capel is landing two MDAA's every year, he will not be at OU very long...it's a double edged sword for me because I love having him on our sideline.

Well said, campbest! Lots of good stuff to agree with in that post. :clap

 

[McG78]

My thoughts:

Also, if Capel is landing two MDAA's every year, he will not be at OU very long...it's a double edged sword for me because I love having him on our sideline.

I don't agree with this. Why would he leave except for a top five program? If he can recruit top talent at Oklahoma (which he has) and his family likes it (which I assume they do because he hasn't left yet), why would he go?

This is the same mentality that most OU fans have, "OU isn't a basketball school that is worth staying at." Not many programs offer what OU has to offer. At the very least, OU offers financial stability with the amount of revenue the football program generates. We do have a pretty impressive winning tradition.

Also, don't give me, "To be closer to his family." One, pretty soon his Dad is going to be done with coaching and can move where ever. Two, during the season and the summer, Capel is either too busy or required to travel (AAU tournaments) so he is not home anyways. Three, when you are making 2 million a year, I think you can spring for first class ticket about anywhere you need to be.

 

[Sam]

Duke is the really the only school I am really really worried about Capel leaving for.