Isaiah Cousin playing for Ben Gordon's All-stars

Cousins is a gamer. I'll be very surprised if he is not getting meaningful minutes by the start of conference play. His aggressive style, size and toughness, as well as his ability to play both the one or two guard spots, could make it hard to keep him on the bench as we get deeper into the season.

Thanks for posting, 25mob!
 
Cousins has the easiest shot at major minutes b/c if Hornbeak isn't going to play the point any, there is no other option behind Grooms.

I'd say at least one of Hornbeak/Hield will get 10+ minutes a game, backing up Pledger/Cam/Neal, and possibly M'Baye if we go with the bigger lineup.
 
WTSooner said:
Cousins has the easiest shot at major minutes b/c if Hornbeak isn't going to play the point any, there is no other option behind Grooms.

I'd say at least one of Hornbeak/Hield will get 10+ minutes a game, backing up Pledger/Cam/Neal, and possibly M'Baye if we go with the bigger lineup.
Click to expand...


To follow along with that line of thought, one would have to believe that everything Kruger says is a lie.

He has said repeatedly that he wants to have an attacting defense all over the floor and an uptempo offense. He wants to be the aggressor on both ends of the court. He has told the kids that he is recruiting that is what he wants and needs them to help him do it.

The personel available last season voided his opportunity to do that. His offense for the most part last season consisted of walking the ball upcourt, setting picks and screens for Pledger, and watching Fitz shoot 12/15 ft. contested jumpers.

On defense, he played more minutes of zone than he did the total of all his years at UNLV. They couldn't close out on a 3 pt. shooter and were at the bottom or near the bottom in every defenseive cagtegory.

He did all of that and lost in the process. He will not do that again. He went out and got some kids that he believes can do it the way he wants it done. And he will give them a shot. Not only that, he will give them preference.

M'baye is the real deal. Anyone who hasn't caught up to that yet is just behind the curve. Osby looked like he could be a fine player if he had just gotten alittle help from somewhere. The rest of them are in danger of finishing their careers at OU in a much diminished role.

Kruger says the competition for time is wide open. Kruger says that he can see a different starting lineup from last season. I don't think he is lying.
 
Last edited:
garyeb2 said:
To follow along with that line of thought, one would have to believe that everything Kruger says is a lie.

He has said repeatedly that he wants to have an attacting defense all over the floor and an uptempo offense. He wants to be the aggressor on both ends of the court. He has told the kids that he is recruiting that is what he wants and needs them to help him do it.

The personel available last season voided his opportunity to do that. His offense for the most part last season consisted of walking the ball upcourt, setting picks and screens for Pledger, and watching Fitz shoot 12/15 ft. contested jumpers.

On defense, he played more minutes of zone than he did the total of all his years at UNLV. They couldn't close out on a 3 pt. shooter and were at the bottom or near the bottom in every defenseive cagtegory.

He did all of that and lost in the process. He will not do that again. He went out and got some kids that he believes can do it the way he wants it done. And he will give them a shot. Not only that, he will give them preference.

M'baye is the real deal. Anyone who hasn't caught up to that yet is just behind the curve. Osby looked like he could be a fine player if he had just gotten alittle help from somewhere. The rest of them are in danger of finishing their careers at OU in a much diminished role.

Kruger says the competition for time is wide open. Kruger says that he can see a different starting lineup from last season. I don't think he is lying.
Click to expand...

As usual your position is a little extreme.

Will the OU starting lineup be different? Yes, but it will be because M'baye will replace either Fitz or Clark. Grooms, Pledger, & Osby all are essential locks to start. I believe Fitz will be coming in off the bench and Clark keeps his starting role due to the defense and tempo that you accurately described. We are not talking about wholesale changes here. I am sure that Grooms, Pledger, and Clark will see less minutes than they typically played last year, but it won't be a massive reduction in minutes.
 
StatGeek said:
As usual your position is a little extreme.

Will the OU starting lineup be different? Yes, but it will be because M'baye will replace either Fitz or Clark. Grooms, Pledger, & Osby all are essential locks to start. I believe Fitz will be coming in off the bench and Clark keeps his starting role due to the defense and tempo that you accurately described. We are not talking about wholesale changes here. I am sure that Grooms, Pledger, and Clark will see less minutes than they typically played last year, but it won't be a massive reduction in minutes.
Click to expand...


Even though I don't think you could be more wrong. It is pleasant to see that someone can challenge an opinion and express their own without juvenile profane name calling and personel insults and attacts. Congradulations and thanks.
 
garyeb2 said:
To follow along with that line of thought, one would have to believe that everything Kruger says is a lie.

He has said repeatedly that he wants to have an attacting defense all over the floor and an uptempo offense. He wants to be the aggressor on both ends of the court. He has told the kids that he is recruiting that is what he wants and needs them to help him do it.

The personel available last season voided his opportunity to do that. His offense for the most part last season consisted of walking the ball upcourt, setting picks and screens for Pledger, and watching Fitz shoot 12/15 ft. contested jumpers.

On defense, he played more minutes of zone than he did the total of all his years at UNLV. They couldn't close out on a 3 pt. shooter and were at the bottom or near the bottom in every defenseive cagtegory.

He did all of that and lost in the process. He will not do that again. He went out and got some kids that he believes can do it the way he wants it done. And he will give them a shot. Not only that, he will give them preference.

M'baye is the real deal. Anyone who hasn't caught up to that yet is just behind the curve. Osby looked like he could be a fine player if he had just gotten alittle help from somewhere. The rest of them are in danger of finishing their careers at OU in a much diminished role.

Kruger says the competition for time is wide open. Kruger says that he can see a different starting lineup from last season. I don't think he is lying.
Click to expand...

Just b/c Kruger says there will be competition, and there will be, doesn't mean these kids are going to come in and start over kids that have played college ball for 2-3 years. And yes, I know what their on the court record is. Doesn't mean they all stink, and can be easily replaced.

I'll bet you that at the end of the season, not factoring in injuries, the 5 players with the most starts come from last year's 5 starters and M'Baye. I'm sorry, but Cousins, Hornbeak, and Hield aren't the kind of kids that come to programs like OU and start immediately. They just aren't. Doesn't mean it's impossible, just highly unlikely. Highly unlikely like it was for Taylor Griffin to get minutes at the 3. Highly unlikely like it was for Osby to get minutes at the 3. Highly unlikely like a lot of other things posters on this board like to suggest are likely to happen.

You keep bringing up what Kruger has done in the past, as if it matters. You said we'd be a pressing/trapping/running team last year. We weren't. I suggested after the first few games, that even though we did trap/press/run some, it wouldn't be how we played against better teams. You said I was wrong. I was not.

IN TIME, yes, Kruger wants a different type of team on the floor. But just b/c he has three new kids that are more athletic, doesn't mean he is just going to stick them on the floor and play that style. OU will win more games next year playing the vets, mixing in the young kids, and SLOWLY moving towards a more uptempo game, then they will throwing the kids out there, and running like we're playing Billy Ball, or 40 Minutes of Hell. Ain't gonna happen like that.
 
garyeb2 said:
Even though I don't think you could be more wrong. It is pleasant to see that someone can challenge an opinion and express their own without juvenile profane name calling and personel insults and attacts. Congradulations and thanks.
Click to expand...

Since you believe that there will be a complete overhaul of the starting 5, what is your prediction for starters?
 
WTSooner said:
Just b/c Kruger says there will be competition, and there will be, doesn't mean these kids are going to come in and start over kids that have played college ball for 2-3 years. And yes, I know what their on the court record is. Doesn't mean they all stink, and can be easily replaced.

I'll bet you that at the end of the season, not factoring in injuries, the 5 players with the most starts come from last year's 5 starters and M'Baye. I'm sorry, but Cousins, Hornbeak, and Hield aren't the kind of kids that come to programs like OU and start immediately. They just aren't. Doesn't mean it's impossible, just highly unlikely. Highly unlikely like it was for Taylor Griffin to get minutes at the 3. Highly unlikely like it was for Osby to get minutes at the 3. Highly unlikely like a lot of other things posters on this board like to suggest are likely to happen.

You keep bringing up what Kruger has done in the past, as if it matters. You said we'd be a pressing/trapping/running team last year. We weren't. I suggested after the first few games, that even though we did trap/press/run some, it wouldn't be how we played against better teams. You said I was wrong. I was not.

IN TIME, yes, Kruger wants a different type of team on the floor. But just b/c he has three new kids that are more athletic, doesn't mean he is just going to stick them on the floor and play that style. OU will win more games next year playing the vets, mixing in the young kids, and SLOWLY moving towards a more uptempo game, then they will throwing the kids out there, and running like we're playing Billy Ball, or 40 Minutes of Hell. Ain't gonna happen like that.
Click to expand...


Yes WT, I know that conventional wisdom is your stock and trade. How many times do I have to respond to your go to example of you know what your talking about.

When Calvin left, Kruger lost the ability to do alot of what he stated that he wanted to do on defense. The people that he had left, specifically Pledger and Fitz, lacked the quickness and athletic ability to play the way he wanted to. I'm not advocating any particular playing style. Kruger is. And he has said it over and over. And he has recruited players and is still recruiting players by telling them that is what he wants to do. The guards that he has brought in seem to be equipped to do just that.

Kruger has said that fans should expect to see a different and improved Clark. Let's both hope he's right and move on to another one. My position on Pledger's shortcomings are well documented, so, let's move on to another one.

That leaves Grooms as an example. I was early on the Grooms band wagon and you jumped on sometime after you declared him to be the worst point guard at OU in the last 20 years. But, glad you are on now. From the information that has been provided, it seems that Cousins is the main competition for his playing time.

I would be willing to bet that Cousins is just as quick and athletic as Grooms. It is a certainty that he is bigger and a near certainty that he is a better shooter. Grooms is a pretty nifty point guard. But, if he continues to miss open jumpers at a rate that the defense starts sagging off him again, he will be on the bench in a heart beat and Cousins will get his shot.

All three of these guards are the long,quick, and athletic type that Kruger seems to prefer. And they are of the type that he will rebuild the program with. All of the starters from last year, with the exception of Osby, were flawed if some area or areas. Those flaws make them vulnerable.

I'm sorry that you don't like the recruiting class. I do. And I certainly do think that they are of the quality to compete toe to toe with players that lost to the likes of Texas Tech and OSU.

The most accurate predicter of human behavior. Is past behavior. What Kruger has said and done in the past is exactly what we should expect in the future. To argue otherwise is..... well, you know.
 
garyeb2 said:
Yes WT, I know that conventional wisdom is your stock and trade. How many times do I have to respond to your go to example of you know what your talking about.

When Calvin left, Kruger lost the ability to do alot of what he stated that he wanted to do on defense. The people that he had left, specifically Pledger and Fitz, lacked the quickness and athletic ability to play the way he wanted to. I'm not advocating any particular playing style. Kruger is. And he has said it over and over. And he has recruited players and is still recruiting players by telling them that is what he wants to do. The guards that he has brought in seem to be equipped to do just that.

Kruger has said that fans should expect to see a different and improved Clark. Let's both hope he's right and move on to another one. My position on Pledger's shortcomings are well documented, so, let's move on to another one.

That leaves Grooms as an example. I was early on the Grooms band wagon and you jumped on sometime after you declared him to be the worst point guard at OU in the last 20 years. But, glad you are on now. From the information that has been provided, it seems that Cousins is the main competition for his playing time.

I would be willing to bet that Cousins is just as quick and athletic as Grooms. It is a certainty that he is bigger and a near certainty that he is a better shooter. Grooms is a pretty nifty point guard. But, if he continues to miss open jumpers at a rate that the defense starts sagging off him again, he will be on the bench in a heart beat and Cousins will get his shot.

All three of these guards are the long,quick, and athletic type that Kruger seems to prefer. And they are of the type that he will rebuild the program with. All of the starters from last year, with the exception of Osby, were flawed if some area or areas. Those flaws make them vulnerable.

I'm sorry that you don't like the recruiting class. I do. And I certainly do think that they are of the quality to compete toe to toe with players that lost to the likes of Texas Tech and OSU.

The most accurate predicter of human behavior. Is past behavior. What Kruger has said and done in the past is exactly what we should expect in the future. To argue otherwise is..... well, you know.
Click to expand...

So what are you saying? If I read you right you are saying...

1.Grooms--but you think Cousins will take over eventually.
2.One of the H's over Pledger.
3.Clark
4.M'baye?
5.Osby
 
garyeb2 said:
When Calvin left, Kruger lost the ability to do alot of what he stated that he wanted to do on defense.
Click to expand...

Seriously? You think that ONE player is the difference between pressuring and not pressuring? Horse hockey.

And we have the proof anyways. We stopped playing that style of ball BEFORE Calvin left the team. Yes, while Calvin was still on the OU roster, we had seen a shift in philosophy? Why? Because Kruger never intended to play that way all season. He used the preseason, and the first two games, as preparation for a) future seasons, and b) short spurts in games later that season.

The same will likely be the case this year. We don't have enough experienced talent to play that style of ball as our base. Will we see it more often then last year? Of course. We have a bench. Regardless of the talent, athleticism, and experience that bench has, simply having guards on the bench means more effort can be expended by the starters. That is simple.
 
boksooner said:
Since you believe that there will be a complete overhaul of the starting 5, what is your prediction for starters?
Click to expand...

OK, I think you are misstating what I said. I think that using the term lock is an exteme position to take.

I don't know how Kruger will use M'baye. I expect that he would be both inside and out over the course of the game. I think he is versatable enough to do that.

So, count him in. I also think that alot of the offense will run thru him and he will become the primary scoring threat.

I think Osby is a fine player and would start at about anywhere in the Big 12.

Past that. The rest of them are too flawed to be considered locks.

I think that Kruger will insist that OU plays good defense next year. I cann't imagine how embarassed he was about what he saw on the floor last year. That will put Pledger and Fitz in a very vulnerable position.Grooms shooting woes and Clarks inconsistancy puts them both in jepardy.

My position is that I think the new guards are quaility recruits. I don't know how far or how quick they will progress. But,unlike most of you, I think the bar is currently pretty low. And it is more likely than not that one or two of them break in.

So, I really can not predict a staring five. But, I am predicting that Kruger won't do what he did last year and the team won't look like they did last year.
 
WTSooner said:
Seriously? You think that ONE player is the difference between pressuring and not pressuring? Horse hockey.

And we have the proof anyways. We stopped playing that style of ball BEFORE Calvin left the team. Yes, while Calvin was still on the OU roster, we had seen a shift in philosophy? Why? Because Kruger never intended to play that way all season. He used the preseason, and the first two games, as preparation for a) future seasons, and b) short spurts in games later that season.

The same will likely be the case this year. We don't have enough experienced talent to play that style of ball as our base. Will we see it more often then last year? Of course. We have a bench. Regardless of the talent, athleticism, and experience that bench has, simply having guards on the bench means more effort can be expended by the starters. That is simple.
Click to expand...

Why do you keep argueing with me on this point. It is Kruger that keeps saying over and over again that is what he wants to do. If he keeps saying it, i'm pretty sure that is what he will do.
 
garyeb2 said:
Why do you keep argueing with me on this point. It is Kruger that keeps saying over and over again that is what he wants to do. If he keeps saying it, i'm pretty sure that is what he will do.
Click to expand...

1. Pretty sure YOU were the one that quoted and responded to me in this thread.

2. I've never argued ONE time that LK wants to move away from having an unathletic lineup. Not once. You and I disagree on the timing. You think it will happen MUCH sooner than it will. The majority of our proven talent is, in a lot of cases, relatively unathletic. You happen to think the chances of a bunch of nonelite players coming in and adjusting very quickly to high level D1 basketball, to the point where they take over playing time from solid, if at times unspectacular vets, is much higher than I do. In time I think the three new guards will be VERY good. I'm especially high on Hield/Hornbeak. That said, I'm not silly enough to sit here and expect them to beat out guys, just b/c you undervalue them. Grooms and Pledger will be better simply by having an improved Cam, and M'Baye. That alone will raise the level of play. It doesn't take removing them from the lineup. I'm guessing Pledger has worked all summer on getting quicker too. Again, he doesn't need to become Mookie. He just needs a small improvement, coupled with improvements from his teammates.

Look around the country, or even our conference, at some of the kids ranked similarly to our three guards we're bringing in. VERY, VERY infrequently are those kids starter worthy, on solid teams, during their frosh seasons. And there is nothing wrong with that.
 
What solid team are you referring to? There hasn't been a solid team residing on campus in years now.

And again with the recruit rankings. I'm interested in Kruger's rankings. He thinks they are good enough to play big 12 basketball. The team he put on the floor last year wasn't. Not even close.

You specifically and others in general continuesly overvalue that group of Capel leftovers for reasons I have yet to understand. I wish it were different too. But there is nothing there.

There are alot of things good basketball players do to help their teams win that don't have a number attatched to them. Kruger's only public knock on the players. And he said it several times. He said he had players that lacked toughness and will.

Now, who do you think he was talking about? It damned sure wasn't Osby. If any of those new faces come in here and display the hustle, determination, toughness, and will that Kruger is looking for, they will play. Those that don't have it will find their butts on the bench.

And WT, if you don't understand that. You are lost.
 
garyeb2 said:
OK, I think you are misstating what I said. I think that using the term lock is an exteme position to take.

I don't know how Kruger will use M'baye. I expect that he would be both inside and out over the course of the game. I think he is versatable enough to do that.

So, count him in. I also think that alot of the offense will run thru him and he will become the primary scoring threat.

I think Osby is a fine player and would start at about anywhere in the Big 12.

Past that. The rest of them are too flawed to be considered locks.

I think that Kruger will insist that OU plays good defense next year. I cann't imagine how embarassed he was about what he saw on the floor last year. That will put Pledger and Fitz in a very vulnerable position.Grooms shooting woes and Clarks inconsistancy puts them both in jepardy.

My position is that I think the new guards are quaility recruits. I don't know how far or how quick they will progress. But,unlike most of you, I think the bar is currently pretty low. And it is more likely than not that one or two of them break in.

So, I really can not predict a staring five. But, I am predicting that Kruger won't do what he did last year and the team won't look like they did last year.
Click to expand...

So why am I so wrong? Seems like you agree with me:

we both agree on Osby
we both agree on M'baye
we both agree on Clark
we both agree on Fitz

we disagree on Pledger (big surprise)

I think your opinion on Grooms/Cousins is reasonable although you see him as less stable than I do.

I said Grooms, Pledger, Clark, and Fitz will see less time than last year (just not a drastic cut except for maybe Fitz).

Please help me understand why I coudn't be more wrong in your opinion.
 
StatGeek said:
So why am I so wrong? Seems like you agree with me:

we both agree on Osby
we both agree on M'baye
we both agree on Clark
we both agree on Fitz

we disagree on Pledger (big surprise)

I think your opinion on Grooms/Cousins is reasonable although you see him as less stable than I do.

I said Grooms, Pledger, Clark, and Fitz will see less time than last year (just not a drastic cut except for maybe Fitz).

Please help me understand why I coudn't be more wrong in your opinion.
Click to expand...



Well, I guess because I think that M'baye and Osby are the only locks.

Cousins, I believe, is the one of the new group that most likely has the skills to be the biggest immediate impact player. Grooms is good. But, he may have the best one chasing him. And then there is that shooting thing. I think the best Grooms can hope for is a 25/15 split on minutes. It was reported that the staff was absolutely giddy over getting Cousins locked down. The coaches promised him time. And I think that they will give him a big shot.

I believe it was WT that observed M'baye's role will be determined to some degree by how others develope. I think that is true. Fitz doesn't rebound or defend at a high level. That should cost him one way or another. If either Bennet or Arent show up this season with the capability of doing only that, Fitz will get to sit alot more and M'baye would be on the peremiter. Clark then has no spot. If Bennet or Arent aren't able to provide big help, then M'bayes stays inside and Fitz to the bench.

If M'baye is mostly inside, then Clark should start but he would be fending off probably Neal and mayby Heild for minutes. If everyone else is suppose to get better in the off season, Then Neal has the right to get better too. Clark has to get better to have any kind of an edge. I hope Kruger is right about him.

When it come to Pledger. Well, there are a couple of things. Firstly, M'baye is the best player and he will most likely inherit the role as the primary scoring option. Alot of inbound plays and set plays will be run to get the ball to him in scoring position. Some of it will be opportunities that Pledger previously had. Secondly, the last 5/6 games of the season they started getting away from Pledger some and getting more opportunities for Osby. And he responded well.
Even when Pledger is on the floor, I would expect him to have a diminished role.

My position has always been that the only reason Pledger and Fitz were on the floor at all is because they need their point production to have any chance at a win. My prediction is that they will have immediate scoring from M'baye and Osby and a good chance to develope consistant scoring from Clark, Heild,Cousins, or Hornbeak. If it works that way, it is an easy path to get the defensive liabilities off the floor.

Kruger does want to attact on offense and defense. Pledger just lacks the first step quickness and lateral speed to do that. If that 3rd consistant scorer developes, there will be a major shift in minutes. There it is. Fire at will
 
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