Isaiah Cousin playing for Ben Gordon's All-stars

[StatGeek]

Well, I guess because I think that M'baye and Osby are the only locks.

Cousins, I believe, is the one of the new group that most likely has the skills to be the biggest immediate impact player. Grooms is good. But, he may have the best one chasing him. And then there is that shooting thing. I think the best Grooms can hope for is a 25/15 split on minutes. It was reported that the staff was absolutely giddy over getting Cousins locked down. The coaches promised him time. And I think that they will give him a big shot.

I believe it was WT that observed M'baye's role will be determined to some degree by how others develope. I think that is true. Fitz doesn't rebound or defend at a high level. That should cost him one way or another. If either Bennet or Arent show up this season with the capability of doing only that, Fitz will get to sit alot more and M'baye would be on the peremiter. Clark then has no spot. If Bennet or Arent aren't able to provide big help, then M'bayes stays inside and Fitz to the bench.

If M'baye is mostly inside, then Clark should start but he would be fending off probably Neal and mayby Heild for minutes. If everyone else is suppose to get better in the off season, Then Neal has the right to get better too. Clark has to get better to have any kind of an edge. I hope Kruger is right about him.

When it come to Pledger. Well, there are a couple of things. Firstly, M'baye is the best player and he will most likely inherit the role as the primary scoring option. Alot of inbound plays and set plays will be run to get the ball to him in scoring position. Some of it will be opportunities that Pledger previously had. Secondly, the last 5/6 games of the season they started getting away from Pledger some and getting more opportunities for Osby. And he responded well.
Even when Pledger is on the floor, I would expect him to have a diminished role.

My position has always been that the only reason Pledger and Fitz were on the floor at all is because they need their point production to have any chance at a win. My prediction is that they will have immediate scoring from M'baye and Osby and a good chance to develope consistant scoring from Clark, Heild,Cousins, or Hornbeak. If it works that way, it is an easy path to get the defensive liabilities off the floor.

Kruger does want to attact on offense and defense. Pledger just lacks the first step quickness and lateral speed to do that. If that 3rd consistant scorer developes, there will be a major shift in minutes. There it is. Fire at will

Having more talented players around Pledger will only make him better. Not from a PPG perspective but in terms of efficiency. I do agree that Pledger will not be the focus of the offense this year, but he will still be a major part of it. I think Osby will have an increased role (similar to the end of last season) and I believe M'baye will have a major role similar to Pledger's. I think Clark will play a glue guy type role with good defense, energy, and run the floor, with some offensive upside, Grooms will facilitate. I see the minutes looking something like this:

30+ minutes
Osby (32)
Pledger (30)
M'baye (30)

20+ Minutes
Grooms (28)
Clark (25)
Fitz (20)

10+ minutes
Cousins (15)
Hornbeak (12)

Less than 10 Minutes
Hield (8)
Neal (6)
Bennett (2)
Arent (2)

Obviously I am pulling this out of my arse but I think it will look something like this.

 

[WTSooner]

What solid team are you referring to? There hasn't been a solid team residing on campus in years now.

You are out of your mind. Last year's team played nearly the entire season with Blair as the only "guard" off the bench. I asked last year, and of course, you couldn't answer, but name me another major college basketball team that a) had less than one guard on the bench, and b) had no true 2's or 3's off the bench. You can't name one. For a team to face that kind of adversity, and to still find a way to win 15 games, is a minor miracle IMO. Simply stick Cousins and Hornbeak on the bench last year, and I think we win 3-5 more games.

And again with the recruit rankings. I'm interested in Kruger's rankings. He thinks they are good enough to play big 12 basketball. The team he put on the floor last year wasn't. Not even close.

You over generalize EVERYTHING. Of course Kruger thinks they can play in the Big 12. Doesn't mean they will be 3rd Team All Big 12 within 6 months of stepping on campus. There is a HUGE difference between the best players in the conference, and the worst. They are all Big 12 caliber players though.

You specifically and others in general continuesly overvalue that group of Capel leftovers for reasons I have yet to understand. I wish it were different too. But there is nothing there.

Not true. I just choose to be realistic about what true freshmen are going to offer. I asked you a question in my last message.....and you can ignore recruiting rankings all you want, but you are only doing it b/c it disproves your point, but name me some kids that came out similar to those three guards, to a program like OU, and started as true frosh on a good team. You'll probably come up with a couple, but not many. If nothing else, I'm simply playing the odds when I say they won't be good enough to overcome our experienced players. I could be wrong, but there is a better chance I am not.

 

[WTSooner]

And for the record Gary, and I know you don't care, but this board has some rather intelligent basketball fans. The understand the game, they understand college ball, and they understand the Big 12. That said, I can't think of a single poster that full out agrees with you on this. And if there are some, it's just a couple. That should tell you something.

 

[garyeb2]

Having more talented players around Pledger will only make him better. Not from a PPG perspective but in terms of efficiency. I do agree that Pledger will not be the focus of the offense this year, but he will still be a major part of it. I think Osby will have an increased role (similar to the end of last season) and I believe M'baye will have a major role similar to Pledger's. I think Clark will play a glue guy type role with good defense, energy, and run the floor, with some offensive upside, Grooms will facilitate. I see the minutes looking something like this:

30+ minutes
Osby (32)
Pledger (30)
M'baye (30)

20+ Minutes
Grooms (28)
Clark (25)
Fitz (20)

10+ minutes
Cousins (15)
Hornbeak (12)

Less than 10 Minutes
Hield (8)
Neal (6)
Bennett (2)
Arent (2)

Obviously I am pulling this out of my arse but I think it will look something like this.

Well, I just have an opinion. There are way too many variables to have alot of certainty at this point. But, until I see it with my own eyes and it's proven otherwise, I'm sticking to my story.

It is exactly the same story I had a year ago. If you look up and see Pledger and Fitz starting for your team and playing major minutes, your team is going to have a pretty low ceiling. A good team might get away with having one like them on the floor, but, not two.

So, we will see.

 

[Stikboy]

I'm one that agrees with Gary. And I for one hope that there is an overhaul of the starting lineup. Bottom line is you, WTSooner, know **** about who will get how many minutes next year. Same can be said for pretty much anybody on this board. So quit acting like such a know it all. Why don't you get away from the board some man? Go outside and water your grass or something. You have officially reached annoying status...

 

[WTSooner]

I'm one that agrees with Gary. And I for one hope that there is an overhaul of the starting lineup. Bottom line is you, WTSooner, know **** about who will get how many minutes next year. Same can be said for pretty much anybody on this board. So quit acting like such a know it all. Why don't you get away from the board some man? Go outside and water your grass or something. You have officially reached annoying status...

If you don't like what I have to say, stop reading it. I'm not going to stop posting my opinion, especially when Gary questions it. He knows we disagree. I stopped responding to his crap a while back. Had he done the same, this thread would be about 8 posts long.

Oh, and my grass looks fine. Thanks though.

P.S. - Thanks for letting me know you don't know squat about hoops. I'll just skip over your "thoughts" in the future. There wasn't a more negative poster during the season than you. All anybody has to do is pull up your profile and look at your posts. 90% were nothing but player bashing. So it's no surprise you think we'll see an "overhaul" in the starting lineup.

 

[garyeb2]

If you don't like what I have to say, stop reading it. I'm not going to stop posting my opinion, especially when Gary questions it. He knows we disagree. I stopped responding to his crap a while back. Had he done the same, this thread would be about 8 posts long.

Oh, and my grass looks fine. Thanks though.

P.S. - Thanks for letting me know you don't know squat about hoops. I'll just skip over your "thoughts" in the future. There wasn't a more negative poster during the season than you. All anybody has to do is pull up your profile and look at your posts. 90% were nothing but player bashing. So it's no surprise you think we'll see an "overhaul" in the starting lineup.

WT, you seem to have multiple opinons on every topic. If me, stickboy, and others ignored them all, that would severly limit our opportunities to participate.

And besides, I let you slide on all but your most aggregious mis statements of facts.

 

[WaymanFan]

As someone who has been following basketball since West and Chaimberlain were still playing, I understand where WTSooner is coming from. The odds that Hield / Hornbeek take a lot of minutes from Pledger are slim. I see Pledger getting 30+ minutes a game. But you know what? If Hield / Hornbeek do end up taking significant minutes from him, it will be because they are better than advertised...in other words, this would be a good problem to have.

One thing I'm not following, though, is how anyone thinks Pledge is just going to fade away his senior year as if he's going to be an afterthought on this team. Is there a precedent in OU basketball when something like this happened? I know I can't think of one.

 

[garyeb2]

As someone who has been following basketball since West and Chaimberlain were still playing, I understand where WTSooner is coming from. The odds that Hield / Hornbeek take a lot of minutes from Pledger are slim. I see Pledger getting 30+ minutes a game. But you know what? If Hield / Hornbeek do end up taking significant minutes from him, it will be because they are better than advertised...in other words, this would be a good problem to have.

One thing I'm not following, though, is how anyone thinks Pledge is just going to fade away his senior year as if he's going to be an afterthought on this team. Is there a precedent in OU basketball when something like this happened? I know I can't think of one.

You are certainly not wrong. But, since you posed a question, I'll try to expand.

It could be that a new player is better than the fans perceived them to be. Or it could be that the returning player isn't really as good as the fans perceived them to be. Or a combination of the two.

I don't have a precedent for for you. But, consider this. There has been a coaching change. Kruger didn't recruit Pledger. There is nothing to make me think that he would have ever recruited Pledger. He seems to prefer the long athletic types. It seems likely that he would recruit a Cam type before a Pledger or Fitz.

On the other hand, he did recruit Cousins, Hornbeak, and Heild. They are his kind of guys, he likes them, and he will give them a big shot to play. In the competition for minutes and starts, the Kruger recruits win ties.

And you are right again when you observe that if one of the freshmen get into Pledger's minutes it would be good news. But, every coin has two sides. If it turns out that they don't, well, that is bad news.

 

[WaymanFan]

Thanks for the reply, Gary. I know you attend a lot of practices and games, so I'm not going to pretend I know more about this team than you do. However, in looking at Pledger's stats, it's obvious he has steadily improved each year - from 6.2 PPG, 1.5 RPG, to 10.9 / 2.1 to 16.2 / 3.9. Now his assists / turnovers hasn't improved, but all signs point to a big year from him.

With that said, if my choices are to be right (Pledge having a big year) and OU not make the Dance, vs. be wrong and make the Dance, I would much prefer the latter.

 

[garyeb2]

Thanks for the reply, Gary. I know you attend a lot of practices and games, so I'm not going to pretend I know more about this team than you do. However, in looking at Pledger's stats, it's obvious he has steadily improved each year - from 6.2 PPG, 1.5 RPG, to 10.9 / 2.1 to 16.2 / 3.9. Now his assists / turnovers hasn't improved, but all signs point to a big year from him.

With that said, if my choices are to be right (Pledge having a big year) and OU not make the Dance, vs. be wrong and make the Dance, I would much prefer the latter.

I really am sorry that so many posters have such a viseral reaction to many of my comments. Except for a couple of course, I just like putting them on tilt.

But, it is just that given that the program is on a 3 yr slide and a new coach was brought in to fix it, I summarily reject the concept of "returning starter" or earned,deserved, or entitled starts or minutes. And according to Kruger's own comments, so does he.

I also reject the notion that Kruger would go out and recruit bench players to a 5-13 team on purpose. It might turn out that way. But, he didn't do it on purpose. If he did, he is way overpaid and we got the wrong guy. He knowns he needs better players to have a better team. He said so.

I'll catch some of those early practices again and report what I see. Then you guys can run it thru what ever filter you think is appropriate.

 

[SilliSooner]

Having more talented players around Pledger will only make him better. Not from a PPG perspective but in terms of efficiency. I do agree that Pledger will not be the focus of the offense this year, but he will still be a major part of it. I think Osby will have an increased role (similar to the end of last season) and I believe M'baye will have a major role similar to Pledger's. I think Clark will play a glue guy type role with good defense, energy, and run the floor, with some offensive upside, Grooms will facilitate. I see the minutes looking something like this:

30+ minutes
Osby (32)
Pledger (30)
M'baye (30)

20+ Minutes
Grooms (28)
Clark (25)
Fitz (20)

10+ minutes
Cousins (15)
Hornbeak (12)

Less than 10 Minutes
Hield (8)
Neal (6)
Bennett (2)
Arent (2)

Obviously I am pulling this out of my arse but I think it will look something like this.

Geek,

I see where you're predicting we'll have a slew of overtime games this year... as your minutes add up to 210 or an average of 42 minute games.

I appreciate your preciseness.

 

[BigTime]

Geek,

I see where you're predicting we'll have a slew of overtime games this year... as your minutes add up to 210 or an average of 42 minute games.

I appreciate your preciseness.

Haha that would not be good for my blood pressure.

As for Cousins, I hope he is ready to come in and defend at a Big 12 level.

 

[StatGeek]

Geek,

I see where you're predicting we'll have a slew of overtime games this year... as your minutes add up to 210 or an average of 42 minute games.

I appreciate your preciseness.

You obviously have zero understanding of how MPG are calculated, at least you tried to be clever though. Thanks for your lack of precision, it gave me a good laugh. I will give you credit though, you did live up to your name.

 

[garyeb2]

I googled Ben Gordon All Stars. From there I found a good sampling of video on Cousins.

I hoped to see a dominate player. That wasn't the case. What I did see was a kid that was making alot of good plays.

He didn't break his neck on defense. But, that team didn't seem to have a break your neck defensive culture. From what I saw, I couldn't say one way or the other if he was going to be a good defender.

He is a good ball handler. But, that sampling wasn't proof that he was Grooms good.

He was taking those kids off the dribble almost at will. But, I don't know the caliber of competition.

If they didn't pick him up, he just pulled up and stroked a 3. He looks pretty good at that.

The most impressive thing to me was his court vision and passing accuracy. I thought that was the area where Grooms would have his biggest advantage over him. I'm not so sure about that now.

And another thing that probably impressed the coaches was that basketball looked to be an easy game for him. The things that he did well when he did them, seemed effortless.

For those that might have been intersted and for what it is worth. There it is.

 

[BigTime]

Thanks, gary. Is he Ray Willis thin/able to be pushed around?

I googled Ben Gordon All Stars. From there I found a good sampling of video on Cousins.

I hoped to see a dominate player. That wasn't the case. What I did see was a kid that was making alot of good plays.

He didn't break his neck on defense. But, that team didn't seem to have a break your neck defensive culture. From what I saw, I couldn't say one way or the other if he was going to be a good defender.

He is a good ball handler. But, that sampling wasn't proof that he was Grooms good.

He was taking those kids off the dribble almost at will. But, I don't know the caliber of competition.

If they didn't pick him up, he just pulled up and stroked a 3. He looks pretty good at that.

The most impressive thing to me was his court vision and passing accuracy. I thought that was the area where Grooms would have his biggest advantage over him. I'm not so sure about that now.

And another thing that probably impressed the coaches was that basketball looked to be an easy game for him. The things that he did well when he did them, seemed effortless.

For those that might have been intersted and for what it is worth. There it is.

 

[garyeb2]

Thanks, gary. Is he Ray Willis thin/able to be pushed around?

No, he looked plenty sturdy enough. But, like most of the youngsters, he will benifit from getting older and a good conditioning program.

 

[AdaSooner]

I googled Ben Gordon All Stars. From there I found a good sampling of video on Cousins.

I hoped to see a dominate player. That wasn't the case. What I did see was a kid that was making alot of good plays.

He didn't break his neck on defense. But, that team didn't seem to have a break your neck defensive culture. From what I saw, I couldn't say one way or the other if he was going to be a good defender.

He is a good ball handler. But, that sampling wasn't proof that he was Grooms good.

He was taking those kids off the dribble almost at will. But, I don't know the caliber of competition.

If they didn't pick him up, he just pulled up and stroked a 3. He looks pretty good at that.

The most impressive thing to me was his court vision and passing accuracy. I thought that was the area where Grooms would have his biggest advantage over him. I'm not so sure about that now.

And another thing that probably impressed the coaches was that basketball looked to be an easy game for him. The things that he did well when he did them, seemed effortless.

For those that might have been intersted and for what it is worth. There it is.

Nice overview, Gary! Your report confirms my initial impression about Cousins and what he will bring to the team this fall. Everything I have seen and read about this kid seems to say that he is a winner who doesn't know the meaning of the word, "quit." That could go a long way in giving him a leg up on his competition for playing time.

 

[SoonerinNC]

The 11-12 Sooners lacked the depth to play Kruger's game. You saw some of the intense defense and uptempo offense mostly in the early part of the season where the bench was good enough to play against the lower level of competition.

But in the Big 12 the Sooner starters were both worn down and there was no help from the bench and they had to move away from what Kruger wants.

I think he will go 9 deep as soon as he can and how the freshmen react to Div I competition will play a big role in whether they can have at least 9 productive players. If so look for a different team in 12-13.

We know that M'Baye will be a welcome addition. The contribution of the freshmen will be key.

I doubt that Fitz and Pledger will lose as many minutes as many of you predict. Experience can make up for that step of quickness.

But having said that I doubt that any of the starting 5 from 11-12 will equal their 11-12 minutes. And I don't expect any of the freshmen to start much if at all. Would be nice if they were that good.