Man....

[Max Power]

I think we can all agree those players got significantly better after the arrival of Jeff Capel. The argument can be made that Capel made those guys who we remember them to be instead of who they were when he arrived.

So by that argument, then with Cam, Pledge, Osby and Fitz the cupboard is bare right now? All i am saying is we had talent, it was young talent yes, but still talent.

 

[Section31]

So by that argument, then with Cam, Pledge, Osby and Fitz the cupboard is bare right now? All i am saying is we had talent, it was young talent yes, but still talent.

This is kind of a circular argument.

The people who are arguing Capel was left pretty good talent and tore the program down and couldn't coach or recruit, are now saying we have no talent in Cam, Pledge, Osby and Fitz. So, if THOSE guys turn out to be players like the players Capel inherited, then what????

 

[perryj74]

So by that argument, then with Cam, Pledge, Osby and Fitz the cupboard is bare right now? All i am saying is we had talent, it was young talent yes, but still talent.

You won't get an argument from me if you want to say the current roster lacks talent needed to compete in the Big 12.

 

[seniorsooner]

Bingo.

 

[CMSOONER]

You won't get an argument from me if you want to say the current roster lacks talent needed to compete in the Big 12.

It lacks talented depth. This is the real issue.

 

[Section31]

It lacks talented depth. This is the real issue.

Like Capel's first year...

 

[colston15]

I buy all but the bolded point. It has been shown many many times that the cupboard was not Bare. AJ, Nate, Taylor, Longar were here. That is talent

We had so much talent we were picked 9th in the preseason poll.

There's some revisionist history at work in this thread.

 

[Mr.B!!!]

Honestly I think the talent in the program now is comperable to the talent that was in the program when Kelvin left....excepting two things: (a) we have no idea how good Osby is or isn't; and (b) when Kelvin left, James and Reynolds were signed to LOI's vs. Goff.

 

[Big Old Booger]

Let me get this straight..Getting the ball in the hands of the best player in the country every time down the court is "terrible coaching"?

Have you sent your resume in to Joe C yet? I am sure he is waiting anxiously...

He went up against KU, Duke, UK, Unc, Texas, OSU, etc., in order to land Blake, Willie, Tiny, Cam, etc. Kelvin Sampson never got a player that KU was actively recruiting in this region. If Capel is as bad a recruiter as you say, then Kelvin must have been the worst recruiter of all-time, right?[/B/

For the record, I do not want Capel back. I trust Joe C, he is the best AD in the country.

Being a good recruiter doesn't really hold much water if you can't coach the kids you recruit to win games or convince them to stick around when it's clearly in their best interests. I would argue Kelvin had some players like the transfer from Kentucky who was better than some KU players at the time, but Kelvin could tell the kid was a bad seed so he booted him before the season ever started.

Capel couldn't do this. He signed kids who nobody else wanted (TMG, Tiny, and WW to an extent) because they had too much baggage. If I remember, we beat Cal and Miss State to get Tiny...not exactly KU, UNC, Duke, etc. that you reference. TMG was recruited by a few of the big programs but the better programs backed off of him when they could clearly see that he was a malcontent and not good for a team environment. WW was also not as heavily recruited because he attended something like 5 schools in 4 years, and left Oak Hill not in good standing.

Just because Kelvin wouldn't compromise his program to recruit a malcontent says more about Kelvin than it does about Capel. Jeff destroyed our program because he compromised his program to bring in somebody who could further his program and probably get him out of Norman soon. Well, he is out of Norman now, but not necesssarily on his terms.

 

[Big Old Booger]

Like Capel's first year...

I disagree with this. But, we've argued about it ad nauseum. So, this is all I'm going to say about it.

 

[Big Old Booger]

Honestly I think the talent in the program now is comperable to the talent that was in the program when Kelvin left....excepting two things: (a) we have no idea how good Osby is or isn't; and (b) when Kelvin left, James and Reynolds were signed to LOI's vs. Goff.

I almost agree with this. Kelvin left a better inside presence in LL than what Capel left behind, but Fitz is clearly a better scorer than anybody left when Kelvin departed for Bloomington.

I would also add that AJ was a better PG than anybody on campus right now.

And, one more comment, all of the players Kelvin left behind had holes in their offensive game, but they were light years better on the defensive end and at rebounding than the kids Capel left behind for the next coach. I would also add they were better disciplined and more blue-collar workers than Capel's players.

Cam has a lot of talent, but he never had to play defense this past year. Pledger is a great streak shooter, but he doesn't play defense or rebound. Fitz is a great scorer, probably as good on the offensive end as anybody since Ace McGhee and probably in the top 10 since 1980 at OU as far as being able to score inside, but he's an atrocious defensive player and an even worse rebounder.

I will also add that a poster on here who has good sources in Norman said Bookout told him that Kelvin would have gotten Capel's first team to the NCAA tourney. So, for Capel's system the players didn't amount to a lot of talent, but it was enough for Kelvin to make something out of them.

 

[TINY]

Being a good recruiter doesn't really hold much water if you can't coach the kids you recruit to win games or convince them to stick around when it's clearly in their best interests. I would argue Kelvin had some players like the transfer from Kentucky who was better than some KU players at the time, but Kelvin could tell the kid was a bad seed so he booted him before the season ever started.

Capel couldn't do this. He signed kids who nobody else wanted (TMG, Tiny, and WW to an extent) because they had too much baggage. If I remember, we beat Cal and Miss State to get Tiny...not exactly KU, UNC, Duke, etc. that you reference. TMG was recruited by a few of the big programs but the better programs backed off of him when they could clearly see that he was a malcontent and not good for a team environment. WW was also not as heavily recruited because he attended something like 5 schools in 4 years, and left Oak Hill not in good standing.

Just because Kelvin wouldn't compromise his program to recruit a malcontent says more about Kelvin than it does about Capel. Jeff destroyed our program because he compromised his program to bring in somebody who could further his program and probably get him out of Norman soon. Well, he is out of Norman now, but not necesssarily on his terms.

I agree with most of what you said, BOB. I will say that BG and WW had offers from every school in the country. Cam had similar offers. The other guys had high d1 level offers, too. It took a good recruiter to get their signatures.

He had opportunities to jump ship after his elite 8 run and instead re-signed til 2016.

 

[Section31]

I disagree with this. But, we've argued about it ad nauseum. So, this is all I'm going to say about it.

My response to the post I quoted really had nothing to do with our previous discussions/disagreements. Our's were related to whether the players in question were all that talented. My post above had more to do with the depth that was available when he got here. We've never really discussed that.

 

[Big Old Booger]

I agree with most of what you said, BOB. I will say that BG and WW had offers from every school in the country. Cam had similar offers. The other guys had high d1 level offers, too. It took a good recruiter to get their signatures.

He had opportunities to jump ship after his elite 8 run and instead re-signed til 2016.

BG, I agree, had multiple offers. I thought most of the teams backed off WW, but according to Rivals both KU and UConn recruited him.

To your previous post, I would guess Sampson beat out KU for Ryan Humphrey and maybe another player or 2 we don't remember. We also know he lost Hinrich, Langford, and Collison all to KU, but IMO, Kelvin's recruiting proved he was a good coach because he won a lot of games with only 1 or 2 players that ever played in the NBA. That's a testament to his level of coaching. Also, when he was at IU, he signed Eric Gordon, so he could recruit he just wasn't willing to recruit the kids who could be a cancer to his program.

 

[Section31]

I almost agree with this. Kelvin left a better inside presence in LL than what Capel left behind, but Fitz is clearly a better scorer than anybody left when Kelvin departed for Bloomington.

I would also add that AJ was a better PG than anybody on campus right now.

And, one more comment, all of the players Kelvin left behind had holes in their offensive game, but they were light years better on the defensive end and at rebounding than the kids Capel left behind for the next coach. I would also add they were better disciplined and more blue-collar workers than Capel's players.

Cam has a lot of talent, but he never had to play defense this past year. Pledger is a great streak shooter, but he doesn't play defense or rebound. Fitz is a great scorer, probably as good on the offensive end as anybody since Ace McGhee and probably in the top 10 since 1980 at OU as far as being able to score inside, but he's an atrocious defensive player and an even worse rebounder.

And if you KNEW any of this back in Capel's first year, you were the only one and should be an NBA scout. Those guys had not shown ANY SIGNS of being the players you describe.

I will also add that a poster on here who has good sources in Norman said Bookout told him that Kelvin would have gotten Capel's first team to the NCAA tourney. So, for Capel's system the players didn't amount to a lot of talent, but it was enough for Kelvin to make something out of them.

And this is one man's opinion (if he said it). Just because you played in the program doesn't necessarily mean you are Carnac The Magnificent...

 

[Big Old Booger]

My response to the post I quoted really had nothing to do with our previous discussions/disagreements. Our's were related to whether the players in question were all that talented. My post above had more to do with the depth that was available when he got here. We've never really discussed that.

You are right.

Like I said in a previous post, the talent that Kelvin left would have been good enough for him to get them to another NCAA tournament and that doesn't come from me but from Kevin Bookout. The players fit Kelvin's system, but did not fit Capel's.

Depth was an issue, and even Kelvin knew that because he had 5 guys committed or signed that would have had a huge impact. Capel was only able to get 2 of those guys and he added 1 more...was it Leary?

 

[Big Old Booger]

And if you KNEW any of this back in Capel's first year, you were the only one and should be an NBA scout. Those guys had not shown ANY SIGNS of being the players you describe.



And this is one man's opinion (if he said it). Just because you played in the program doesn't necessarily mean you are Carnac The Magnificent...

Didn't LL score like 28 points in a game during Kelvin's last year? He had the tools, he just couldn't catch. Every game, Kelvin would put him in, Everett would make a beautiful dump pass to LL for what appeared to be an easy bucket and LL would drop the ball out of bounds. Turnover. Kelvin would pull him immediately because he didn't stand for turnovers. But that night we had some players injured and Kelvin had nobody else to play so he let LL go the entire game and LL had high 20's points.

I also thought AJ was a good PG in Kelvin's last season. Maybe I bought into the recruiting hype about the kid more than others so I could see what he had?

You can't deny that Godbold, Taylor Griffin, and AJ were all good defensive players. I would also include LL as a good defensive player from an inside presence perspective because of his height, wingspan, and jumping ability. I don't think he was the 2nd coming of Dennis Rodman, but the tools he had made him a good inside presence.

Just my opinion...maybe I'm wrong.

 

[Section31]

Didn't LL score like 28 points in a game during Kelvin's last year? He had the tools, he just couldn't catch. Every game, Kelvin would put him in, Everett would make a beautiful dump pass to LL for what appeared to be an easy bucket and LL would drop the ball out of bounds. Turnover. Kelvin would pull him immediately because he didn't stand for turnovers. But that night we had some players injured and Kelvin had nobody else to play so he let LL go the entire game and LL had high 20's points.

I also thought AJ was a good PG in Kelvin's last season. Maybe I bought into the recruiting hype about the kid more than others so I could see what he had?

You can't deny that Godbold, Taylor Griffin, and AJ were all good defensive players. I would also include LL as a good defensive player from an inside presence perspective because of his height, wingspan, and jumping ability. I don't think he was the 2nd coming of Dennis Rodman, but the tools he had made him a good inside presence.

Just my opinion...maybe I'm wrong.

Of course it's all hindsight now, and I won't call you a liar, but I'd bet you didn't have the opinion of them then. I just don't recall ANYONE thinking we had a ton of talent. Again, those guys didn't show much more (if any) ability than the current returning roster. Maybe because they didn't get the opportunity, but I still maintain they showed little of what you describe.

 

[skyvue]

Probation + loss of scholarships + a bare cupboard in terms of talent + poor fan support = a crumbling program

Funny, but in every one of those areas, save the one-year probation, we're worse off now. Throw in recent win-loss results, and it's even worse. And who knows what's coming down the pipe when the NCAA finally rules on the Tiny matter?

I don't see how you can question this...these are 17-18 year old kids, they're going to do what they want.

I'm actually neutral on the point, but it can be argued. If 17-18 year olds are going to do what they want, then perhaps coaches shouldn't get credit for signing those they do. Perhaps those players were just doing what they wanted.

If a coach deserves praise for signing players, it can be argued that he deserves blame for those he doesn't sign (or keep to their commitments). Every coach has recruiting successes and failures. It's naive to think only the successes count.

I'd bet you didn't have the opinion of them then. I just don't recall ANYONE thinking we had a ton of talent. Again, those guys didn't show much more (if any) ability than the current returning roster. Maybe because they didn't get the opportunity, but I still maintain they showed little of what you describe.

There's a wide area between a bare cupboard and tons of talent. No one, to my knowledge, has said we had tons of talent when Capel came in, but the falsehood that the cupboard was bare has been repeated ad nauseum on this board.

The fact is we had a group of decent to good players here or signed, and I'm going to repeat their names again, just to again expose the oft-repeated "bare cupboard" statement as flat-out ridiculous: Nate Carter, Keith Clark, Tony Crocker, David Goldbold, Taylor Griffin, Austin Johnson, Longar Longar, and Michael Neal.

Sorry, but that is by no stretch of the imagination a "bare cupboard." I'd take that group of players over our current group in a heartbeat. And as was pointed out above, that group was ready, willing and able to play hard-nosed defense, something we rarely did under Capel.

And you'd lose your bet, in my case. I fully expected the 2007 team to make it to the NIT, minimum, and I felt there was no reason they couldn't get into the tourney, pending our new coach's coaching skills.

I still feel that way, and so, reportedly, does Kevin Bookout.

 

[Section31]

And you'd lose your bet, in my case. I fully expected the 2007 team to make it to the NIT, minimum, and I felt there was no reason they couldn't get into the tourney, pending our new coach's coaching skills.

I still feel that way, and so, reportedly, does Kevin Bookout.

Again, if you're gonna quote me to back up your past opinion, either stick to the gist of my post (BOB and I were discussing whether he thought that class would end up being part of an elite 8 team, since we're kind of comparing the current roster to what THAT roster ended up accomplishing)...so, you're point that they didn't reach your expectations of the NIT (which was, what, maybe two more wins that year) doesn't counter anything I said in all reality.

I guess that's my point in the end. We are ALL making guesses about THIS roster WILL accomplish compared to what that past roster did and it's all a guess, not to mention NO ONE IN THEIR RIGHT MIND expected that roster +BG to reach the elite 8.

BTW, Bookout is a GREAT Sooner that I have TONS of respect for, but his "guess" is no better than your's or mine...