Man....

[DenverSooner]

BTW, Bookout is a GREAT Sooner that I have TONS of respect for, but his "guess" is no better than your's or mine...

I think Kevin Bookout is just a tad bit more qualified to speak about what Coach Sampson and those guys could do than any of us. He played with the guys and played for Sampson. Now he is probably a bit biased towards Sampson because Sampson was his coach but he has more information and probably more knowledge about basketball than most of us.

 

[Section31]

I think Kevin Bookout is just a tad bit more qualified to speak about what Coach Sampson and those guys could do than any of us. He played with the guys and played for Sampson. Now he is probably a bit biased towards Sampson because Sampson was his coach but he has more information and probably more knowledge about basketball than most of us.

But it's still a guess...right?

 

[SoonerinNC]

Re: Why the love for Williams, Evans and Hoffman

Not saying they are wrong for the job but just interested in why there is so much sentiment for the three.

Evans has no Div I resume other than a player. Hoffman has not elevated his current team that much.

The Marquette web site really hypes Williams particularly his recruiting ability, although most of it is as an assistant which you wonder about real contributions.

Marquette has done pretty well in the tournament so far but he had no good wins outside the conference this year and lost to Duke, Gonzaga, Wisconsin and Vanderbuilt. The team was down a little when he was hired so maybe his program is just getting there.

I know there is some feeling that local ties are important but OU is a national program and I question the importance of the local ties in the long run. The right person who can significantly elevate our program will develop the right kind of relationships very quick.

Also I wonder about the rumors that Williams was in the bag before Capel was fired. I think there are some rules, at least unwritten rules that most schools adhere to regarding contact with a candidate without permission from the other school. Also I don't see Joe C as one who would go out and hire a replacement before he releases the current coach.

Sorry, thought I was opening a new thread.

 

[soonertravis]

I almost agree with this. Kelvin left a better inside presence in LL than what Capel left behind, but Fitz is clearly a better scorer than anybody left when Kelvin departed for Bloomington.

I would also add that AJ was a better PG than anybody on campus right now.

And, one more comment, all of the players Kelvin left behind had holes in their offensive game, but they were light years better on the defensive end and at rebounding than the kids Capel left behind for the next coach. I would also add they were better disciplined and more blue-collar workers than Capel's players.

Cam has a lot of talent, but he never had to play defense this past year. Pledger is a great streak shooter, but he doesn't play defense or rebound. Fitz is a great scorer, probably as good on the offensive end as anybody since Ace McGhee and probably in the top 10 since 1980 at OU as far as being able to score inside, but he's an atrocious defensive player and an even worse rebounder.

I will also add that a poster on here who has good sources in Norman said Bookout told him that Kelvin would have gotten Capel's first team to the NCAA tourney. So, for Capel's system the players didn't amount to a lot of talent, but it was enough for Kelvin to make something out of them.

That first Capel team had accomplished nothing at OU, aside from Neal. Neal was the only one who had done anythign here. Longar was developed by Capel. Carter became a scorer, etc. Compare the stats of the kids in Kelvin's last year and Capel's first and tell me how Sampson could have done anything more with those kids. That next Sampson team was going to rely heavily upon the incoming Freshmen who didn't show up in Norman.

 

[skyvue]

That first Capel team had accomplished nothing at OU, aside from Neal. Neal was the only one who had done anythign here. Longar was developed by Capel. Carter became a scorer, etc. Compare the stats of the kids in Kelvin's last year and Capel's first and tell me how Sampson could have done anything more with those kids. That next Sampson team was going to rely heavily upon the incoming Freshmen who didn't show up in Norman.

Yes, because players never get better between their freshman and sophomore seasons, or their sophomore and junior campaigns, or their junior and senior years.

Why, just look at Ace McGhee -- he didn't get any better with Sampson as his coach. His junior and senior seasons were virtual mirror images of each other, right?

Hollis Price is another example. Didn't improve a whit as his career at OU progressed.

Similarly, look at Stacy King under Tubbs. Showed virtually no improvement as an upperclassman. He was as every bit as good as a freshman and sophomore as he would ever be.

No, simple maturation, as a person and as an athlete, means nothing. It was only Capel's amazing tutelage that fostered their improvement. There's simply no way that very young 2007 group would ever have improved with Sampson at the helm.

 

[Section31]

Yes, because players never get better between their freshman and sophomore seasons, or their sophomore and junior campaigns, or their junior and senior years.

Why, just look at Ace McGhee -- he didn't get any better with Sampson as his coach. His junior and senior seasons were virtual mirror images of each other, right?

Hollis Price is another example. Didn't improve a whit as his career at OU progressed.

Similarly, look at Stacy King under Tubbs. Showed virtually no improvement as an upperclassman. He was as every bit as good as a freshman and sophomore as he would ever be.

No, simple maturation, as a person and as an athlete, means nothing. It was only Capel's amazing tutelage that fostered their improvement. There's simply no way that very young 2007 group would ever have improved with Sampson at the helm.

You make good points, but I could probably make a LOOOONG list of guys who didn't get better. Again, its more, IMO, about what DID happen then what could have happened...

 

[TINY]

Funny, but in every one of those areas, save the one-year probation, we're worse off now. Throw in recent win-loss results, and it's even worse. And who knows what's coming down the pipe when the NCAA finally rules on the Tiny matter?

Well I would definitely say the program is currently crumbling, too. I never said I thought Capel should still be here or not, just that he wasn't near as bad as many on here claim.

Probation is the worst on the list, IMO. If OU gets punished for the Tiny deal, then this is a harder situation for the incoming coach to overcome. However, from everything I heard OU will not be punished for this. Perry Jones did something similar (received $4000+ in loans and his mother paid it back & he received a free ticket to the nfl draft from an unknown source), and he would only miss 5 games, should he stay.

 

[skyvue]

You make good points, but I could probably make a LOOOONG list of guys who didn't get better. Again, its more, IMO, about what DID happen then what could have happened...

You think so? Let's see the list. Oh, and while you're at it, please compile a similar list for Coach Capel, Coach Tubbs, Coach Bliss, Coach McCleod and Coach Drake. Because I can assure you that college athletics are rife with players who, when viewed in retrospect, might be listed as disappointments. Heck, make a list for Bob Stoops, too, while you're at it.

While you're busy with that, let's look at some of the players who played under both Capel and Sampson.

David Godbold spent three years under Sampson and a season under Capel. If Sampson was so bad and Capel such a whiz at player development, we should see a huge jump in his senior-season contributions, right?

points: 129/166/230/268
steals: 20/26/41/39
turnovers: 32/36/36/39
assists: 29/41/54/54
rebounds: 70/93/144/139

Well, it turns out that Godbold's greatest improvement came under Coach Sampson, between his sophomore and junior years. That comes as no surprise to anyone except paid-in-full members of the ABS Club. That's the interval when a player's greatest improvement often occurs, that or between the junion and senior seasons -- under virtually any coach you can name.

But really, the improvement in his stats comes down primarily to minutes played:

points per minute: .30/.25/.27/.27
steals per minute: .05/.04/.05/.04
assists per minute: .07/.06/.06/.05
rebounds per minutes: .16/.14/.17/.14

Hang on to that thought; it'll reappear as we continue.

Longar Longar spent two years under Sampson and two under Capel:

points: 79/48/301/376
blocks: 17/12/41/33
steals: 7/2/10/8
turnovers: 17/10/70/87
rebounds: 50/43/206/186

If one wishes, one can give Capel the credit for Longar's improved output, but as was stated above, the light most often goes on for players between their sophomore and junior seasons, and it certainly did for Longar.

But, again, the biggest difference for Longar was simply minutes played.

points per minute: .37/.29/.39/.44
rebounds per minute: .23/.25/.27/.22
blocks per minute: .08/.07/.05/.04

So one could certainly argue that the primary factor in Longar Longar's improved stats was not the arrival of Coach Capel or even the departure of Coach Sampson, but the graduation of Kevin Bookout and Taj Grey.

Now, let's look at AJ. He played one season under Coach Sampson and three under Coach Capel.

points: 75/218/302/311
blocks: 8/15/15/28
steals: 21/26/39/47
assists: 45/87/95/140
rebounds: 49/57/95/108

Again, the biggest jump for AJ in most categories was between his sophomore and junior seasons. But let's see how playing time impacted that.

points per minute: .18/.30/.28/.28
blocks per minute: .05/.04/.04/.04
assists per minute: .11/.12/.09/.12
rebounds per minute: .11/.08/.09/.10

I could go on, but I think my point's effectively made: The primary factor in a player's statistical improvement -- or, at least, in the statistical improvement of the players on our roster when Capel arrived -- is maturity, seniority in the program, and the increase in minutes played that naturally occurs with each passing season. There were very few notable leaps in the per-minute stats cited above. The players in question just got more playing time as they matured and improved and older players above them graduated.

Now, I'm fully aware that those who insist on blaming Sampson for all of the ills we're enduring will not be swayed by the above information; their hatred runs too deep. But I do harbor a small hope that the facts presented above will make them squrim just a little before they reach for their cloaks of denial and put their heads back into the sand.

 

[colston15]

I could go on, but I think my point's effectively made: The primary factor in a player's statistical improvement -- or, at least, in the statistical improvement of the players on our roster when Capel arrived -- is maturity, seniority in the program, and the increase in minutes played that naturally occurs with each passing season. There were very few notable leaps in the per-minute stats cited above. The players in question just got more playing time as they matured and improved and older players above them graduated.

That's the Sampson side of it, for sure. And I loved Kelvin. However, I equally dislike those that blame Capel for anything and everything, yet credit him for nothing.

I'd seriously question your basketball eye if you were to seriously claim Longar's improved play was due only to more minutes.

I also found it interesting you left AJ's turnover stats off your compilation. Did it not fit your argument? Heaven forbid Capel, a former college point guard, made AJ better at the position.

And Godbold was not a skilled player, he was a good athlete with a good competitive spirit. He didn't have a high ceiling.

 

[dubyac]

to quote one of my favorite baseball movies, Major League... with a slight variation... "Who gives a sh*t, they're gone...."

 

[Section31]

You think so? Let's see the list. Oh, and while you're at it, please compile a similar list for Coach Capel, Coach Tubbs, Coach Bliss, Coach McCleod and Coach Drake. Because I can assure you that college athletics are rife with players who, when viewed in retrospect, might be listed as disappointments. Heck, make a list for Bob Stoops, too, while you're at it.

While you're busy with that, let's look at some of the players who played under both Capel and Sampson.

David Godbold spent three years under Sampson and a season under Capel. If Sampson was so bad and Capel such a whiz at player development, we should see a huge jump in his senior-season contributions, right?

points: 129/166/230/268
steals: 20/26/41/39
turnovers: 32/36/36/39
assists: 29/41/54/54
rebounds: 70/93/144/139

Well, it turns out that Godbold's greatest improvement came under Coach Sampson, between his sophomore and junior years. That comes as no surprise to anyone except paid-in-full members of the ABS Club. That's the interval when a player's greatest improvement often occurs, that or between the junion and senior seasons -- under virtually any coach you can name.

But really, the improvement in his stats comes down primarily to minutes played:

points per minute: .30/.25/.27/.27
steals per minute: .05/.04/.05/.04
assists per minute: .07/.06/.06/.05
rebounds per minutes: .16/.14/.17/.14

Hang on to that thought; it'll reappear as we continue.

Longar Longar spent two years under Sampson and two under Capel:

points: 79/48/301/376
blocks: 17/12/41/33
steals: 7/2/10/8
turnovers: 17/10/70/87
rebounds: 50/43/206/186

If one wishes, one can give Capel the credit for Longar's improved output, but as was stated above, the light most often goes on for players between their sophomore and junior seasons, and it certainly did for Longar.

But, again, the biggest difference for Longar was simply minutes played.

points per minute: .37/.29/.39/.44
rebounds per minute: .23/.25/.27/.22
blocks per minute: .08/.07/.05/.04

So one could certainly argue that the primary factor in Longar Longar's improved stats was not the arrival of Coach Capel or even the departure of Coach Sampson, but the graduation of Kevin Bookout and Taj Grey.

Now, let's look at AJ. He played one season under Coach Sampson and three under Coach Capel.

points: 75/218/302/311
blocks: 8/15/15/28
steals: 21/26/39/47
assists: 45/87/95/140
rebounds: 49/57/95/108

Again, the biggest jump for AJ in most categories was between his sophomore and junior seasons. But let's see how playing time impacted that.

points per minute: .18/.30/.28/.28
blocks per minute: .05/.04/.04/.04
assists per minute: .11/.12/.09/.12
rebounds per minute: .11/.08/.09/.10

I could go on, but I think my point's effectively made: The primary factor in a player's statistical improvement -- or, at least, in the statistical improvement of the players on our roster when Capel arrived -- is maturity, seniority in the program, and the increase in minutes played that naturally occurs with each passing season. There were very few notable leaps in the per-minute stats cited above. The players in question just got more playing time as they matured and improved and older players above them graduated.

Now, I'm fully aware that those who insist on blaming Sampson for all of the ills we're enduring will not be swayed by the above information; their hatred runs too deep. But I do harbor a small hope that the facts presented above will make them squrim just a little before they reach for their cloaks of denial and put their heads back into the sand.

Holy ****...you've lost your mind...

I was speaking in general terms...I wasn't referring to any coach. In fact, I wasn't even referring to OU. I should have split my response up and your post I quoted so it made more sense. My "list" reference was in response to the first paragraph I quoted on that post where you said, "Yes, because players never get better between their freshman and sophomore seasons, or their sophomore and junior campaigns, or their junior and senior years."

Sorry for the confusion and making completely go nuts...

 

[Dr Sleep]

I was wondering about the original post...

any luck today Chewy75?

 

[stoops4pres]

I don't see how you can question this...these are 17-18 year old kids, they're going to do what they want. Majority of players make their college choice based on the coach, when that variable changes, usually so does the player's view of the program.

This.

In no way should Capel be blamed for not keeping Reynolds, Damion James, etc. Those guys initially signed to OU mainly because of their relationship with KS.

Heck, when Capel tried to call James to convince him to stay, James didn't even give him the time of day... He had his brother pretend he was James, fooling Capel into thinking he was talking to Damion the entire time.

 

[skyvue]

I'd seriously question your basketball eye if you were to seriously claim Longar's improved play was due only to more minutes.

I also found it interesting you left AJ's turnover stats off your compilation. Did it not fit your argument? Heaven forbid Capel, a former college point guard, made AJ better at the position.

And Godbold was not a skilled player, he was a good athlete with a good competitive spirit. He didn't have a high ceiling.

And I seriously question your basketball eye if you haven't noticed that players tend to show significant improvement in their junior seasons -- especially when their minutes increase significantly.

As for AJ's turnover stats, I didn't leave them off on purpose. But you could have provided them, you know. This stuff's out there for the grabbing.

Turnovers: 38/44/45/59
TOs per minute: .09/.06/.04/.05

His turnovers increased each year, actually, but his turnovers-per-minute-played rate did decrease overall, though, again, I would attribute that as much to maturity and experience as anything. I trust, for example. that Carl Blair's turnovers-per-minute will decrease over time, and I won't be inclined to give the new coach undue credit for that, either.

In any case, I'm not trashing Capel. I'm just pointing out that many factors go into a player's improvement over time, especially in his junior and/or senior seasons.

But the implication that Longar and AJ and a handful of others wouldn't have improved as much under Sampson is a reach, in my view, an hypothesis (though it's often presented as fact) offered, in certain cases at least, because it fits an ongoing (and tiresome) agenda.

As for the untalented and low-ceilinged Godbold, how i wish we'd had him the past two seasons.

 

[SoonerinNC]

No one seems to be talking about the drop off by Neal. He had some big games as a junior but had difficulty getting an open shot his final season.

I don't give Capel a complete pass for losing the recruits. That much defection seemed to be a little beyond the norm.

I think he was a good guy and tried his best and maybe the experience at OU will prepare him for more success later in his career. The really good ones learn more from adversity than from success.

I am pleased to see that there is nowhere the acrimony on the board that we saw when Sampson left and Capel was hired. I think we are mostly prepared to fully support the new coach without the endless comparisons between whoever it will be and Capel.

I trust that Joe C did not see the progress that he expected from the program and could not project it back to the top third of the league unless a change was made. Obviously the key is who will he hire.