OU vs. Baylor and the Spawn of Satan

[sybarite]

You have to stop the trend, and I think there will be a major input on that at this year's meetings. Too much is too much. It negates even Aston's team. It isn't even something that Geno or other top coaches want. It takes away from their ability to coach basketball. I don't think they want to bring in assistants from the wrestling circuit.

 

[Oliver Hardy]

I hope it does come up and maybe the coaches do want to clean it up --- but they and the refs haven't yet and I won't hold my breath.

 

[22dupree]

The physical play from Cox doesn't necessarily bother me. The clapping after Gioya fouled out was no impact ... but that swipe Cox took at Gioya's face was absolutely terrible.
That stuff must be cleaned up. Couldn't believe the refs never took a look at that.
And I would've loved to have seen her smack at Amanda Thompson that way ... we'd likely be having a completely different discussion about that incident.

 

[SKSooner]

I just went back and watched Mulkey's press conference and the way she responded to questions about her post-game rant on senior night..WOW. That was uncomfortable. She's not really remorseful and treats the questions with contempt. It is truly remarkable someone at her level is allowed to behave that way. It's really embarrassing for Baylor and women's basketball.

I really hope Connecticut beats Baylor by 65 in the national championship game.

 

[Pike Pastor]

I agree with most of this. I wonder if we won't have the talent next year to make the Final Four, at least the Elite Eight.

Gawd luv ya, Syb, your optimism is ...well...unlike any other.

 

[tycat947]

I just went back and watched Mulkey's press conference and the way she responded to questions about her post-game rant on senior night..WOW. That was uncomfortable. She's not really remorseful and treats the questions with contempt. It is truly remarkable someone at her level is allowed to behave that way. It's really embarrassing for Baylor and women's basketball.

I really hope Connecticut beats Baylor by 65 in the national championship game.

+1

She's never apologized for any of her comments or antics. She's the Bobby Knight of women's basketball. NEVER done anything wrong!

 

[SoonerSpock]

I hope it does come up and maybe the coaches do want to clean it up --- but they and the refs haven't yet and I won't hold my breath.

I think you are right on! All these refs call games all over the country in virtually every conference which includes UConn, Notre Dame, Stanford, Maryland and South Carolina games. They do not come to the Big 12 and suddenly start calling games differently because Baylor is on the court. They have too much ethics as officials to do so.

But in my opinion it is without question that the game of basketball was designed to be a finesse game not a collision sport and the game needs to be cleaned up. It needs to start with stopping the offensive player from initiating contact and calling the fall on the defender. Failure to do so necessitates the defense to get physical to combat the defense. The incidental contact rules need to minimize this contact. Force defenders to defend with their feet and body more so than with their hands.

I attribute this physicality primarily to the TV networks wanting a more physical high scoring game because they think that is what there viewing public wants. No question WBB is going to chase the almighty dollar and so it is very unlikely the refs will call the game tighter. Damn it!!!

 

[tycat947]

I think you are right on! All these refs call games all over the country in virtually every conference which includes UConn, Notre Dame, Stanford, Maryland and South Carolina games. They do not come to the Big 12 and suddenly start calling games differently because Baylor is on the court. They have too much ethics as officials to do so.

But in my opinion it is without question that the game of basketball was designed to be a finesse game not a collision sport and the game needs to be cleaned up. It needs to start with stopping the offensive player from initiating contact and calling the fall on the defender. Failure to do so necessitates the defense to get physical to combat the defense. The incidental contact rules need to minimize this contact. Force defenders to defend with their feet and body more so than with their hands.

I attribute this physicality primarily to the TV networks wanting a more physical high scoring game because they think that is what there viewing public wants. No question WBB is going to chase the almighty dollar and so it is very unlikely the refs will call the game tighter. Damn it!!!

Very true! Everyone hopes to see a fight break out!

 

[Hoopdreams79]

I only ask that OU not have 7 - 8 players on the bench Who could not play for any D1 team in America.

True very true

 

[Hoopdreams79]

Toughness not dirty play big difference. Recruit tough kids things will change - this team has some but they are not the ones always on the floor. You need kids that will play hard every possession and step up especially against opponents like Baylor. Make it personal - don't like the way Cox plays make sure she knows it. This game isn't for the soft.

 

[Sweetest OU Girl]

I have stayed out of this up until now, but decided to share a thought or two.

1st: I have watched lots of WBB this year - not just Big-12 - but from across the country. Yes, these officials call games all over the place. However, they do NOT call them the same everywhere. They allow far more rough, aggressive fouling in Big-12 games than most other places. The other conferences have an administration who have chosen to actually follow the rules given by the NCAA. And those conferences thus produce much cleaner, more skillful play. They are much more enjoyable to watch. However in Big-12 games, it appears someone wants to see rough (and thus dangerous) play from some teams. I guess you may be correct that it is in order to get more TV share. The evidence suggests it does not actually do that however.

2nd: That foul (uncalled) by COX was amazing. I'm talking the one toward the end of the game when COX shoved Carter 10 feet or so as she moved toward the basket, then swung her arm trying to hit Gioya. Unbelievably the foul was called on Carter. That was incredible. You saw what happened, I saw it from the stands, the announcers saw it, SC saw it from the other end of the court. And I don't see any possibility that the officials didn't see it too. So that leaves the question: Why did they not call it like it happened? Gioya reacted in amazement that COX was allowed to try to hit her without any penalty - so the officials gave her a technical. The announcers said something like "the 2nd person always gets called". The problem is Carter did NOT try to hit back in defense. She called on the officials to protect her safety and call the real foul. It seems to me their response could easily be interpreted as them not wanting the attempted assault pointed out.

Now officiating didn't determine the outcome of the game. Our lousy shooting did - among other things. But officiating did impact the point spread. Why would that happen? Who gains from that?

 

[tycat947]

I have stayed out of this up until now, but decided to share a thought or two.

1st: I have watched lots of WBB this year - not just Big-12 - but from across the country. Yes, these officials call games all over the place. However, they do NOT call them the same everywhere. They allow far more rough, aggressive fouling in Big-12 games than most other places. The other conferences have an administration who have chosen to actually follow the rules given by the NCAA. And those conferences thus produce much cleaner, more skillful play. They are much more enjoyable to watch. However in Big-12 games, it appears someone wants to see rough (and thus dangerous) play from some teams. I guess you may be correct that it is in order to get more TV share. The evidence suggests it does not actually do that however.

2nd: That foul (uncalled) by COX was amazing. I'm talking the one toward the end of the game when COX shoved Carter 10 feet or so as she moved toward the basket, then swung her arm trying to hit Gioya. Unbelievably the foul was called on Carter. That was incredible. You saw what happened, I saw it from the stands, the announcers saw it, SC saw it from the other end of the court. And I don't see any possibility that the officials didn't see it too. So that leaves the question: Why did they not call it like it happened? Gioya reacted in amazement that COX was allowed to try to hit her without any penalty - so the officials gave her a technical. The announcers said something like "the 2nd person always gets called". The problem is Carter did NOT try to hit back in defense. She called on the officials to protect her safety and call the real foul. It seems to me their response could easily be interpreted as them not wanting the attempted assault pointed out.

Now officiating didn't determine the outcome of the game. Our lousy shooting did - among other things. But officiating did impact the point spread. Why would that happen? Who gains from that?

Good point! I haven't paid enough attention to the other games to know if they are called differently but just know the officials cross the country calling games. If there is a major difference in how they call them then it should show up in tourney, either in Big 12's favor or against.

I definitely agree about Cox and I saw same thing as you. I had no idea she was like that. Officials didn't cost us the game but I thought they were unusually bad last night. It took them so long to call a flagrant foul on Mompremier when Brenda and Ron immediately called it on the broadcast! I guess they were trying to decide who was going to tell Mulkey!

 

[SoonerSpock]

Again the game of WBB is poor officiated not because of ref bias but their failure to comply with the rules and a call the game tighter. I have expounded earlier why I think that occurs.

Consequently I did not like how the Baylor vs OU game was called and without question the refs botched the no call on Lauren Cox. But I never like how the game is called as the offense can initiate contact without fouling and are allowed to go over the back to improve scoring. The defense has to be physical to compete. Also we don't know what Carter said so we cannot truly question the T on her. Maybe a good call maybe a bad call but we need more information to know. Sorry but we do not have a better view from 150' than the refs from 15'. But they are human and do blow calls, no question.

I don't watch WBB but about a game a week outside of the Big 12 and they are generally top ten type games. But I do see enough games to observe that the same officials that call the Big 12 games are calling the other games. My observation is the games are called about the same regardless where the games are played.

Also no way is Kim Mulkey intimidating the refs. In fact it appears she has been called to task by the officials this season as her emotional outbreaks of previous seasons have been immensely curtailed. She definitely is not the same uncontrolled Kim.

26 different refs have called OU conference games. To state that this number of officials calling a Big 12 game change their interpretation and enforcement of the rules when changing conferences and suddenly allow a coach to intimidate how they call a game while overcoming playing on the road before 4,000 fans and against a HOF coach is ludicrous.

I can recall at least 3 occasions against Baylor when Mulkey and 3-4 when Vivi had over the back fouls that should have been called but were no calls. I probably missed more than a couple more. Ditto Baylor's numerous over the back no calls. Unfortunately most OU fans only observe those calls that go against us and seldom to never the breaks that are in their favor.

We must not forget that the Big 12 is run by Texas first and then Oklahoma. They have always been the big fish in the pond and what they want they get. Rest assured that if Texas AD Mike Perrin, Karen Aston, Joe Castiglione and Sherri Coale thought the games in general were not being called correctly and that Kim was successfully intimidating the refs to Baylor's advantage they would get that stopped ASAP.

The TV networks intimidating UT and OU is another matter. The game has become too physical but my observation is Kim has learned to teach her team how the game is being called, how to find what their limitations is on game night and how to use it to their advantage. OU not so much. Vivi will initiate contact on the offensive end consistently and on occasion Carter and Dungee. But Baylor when attacking the basket shoot the ball to make the shot. OU players tend to just throw the ball up with no serious attempt to put it in the hole when fouled. To me that is coaching or lack thereof .

 

[inoref]

I think a lot of this is when you have two different style of teams playing, one very physical one not. Remember not too long ago when we had Courtney Paris and others the game was pretty physical that OU played. I don't recall anyone here crying about that. If possible maybe SC needs to take a look at the type of players she recruits. I don't want to see any player lady or man hurt but those thinking basketball isn't a contact sport are living in the past. IMO truly if you going to be mad..get mad at the who is responsible for the product on the floor.

 

[SoonerSpock]

I think a lot of this is when you have two different style of teams playing, one very physical one not. Remember not too long ago when we had Courtney Paris and others the game was pretty physical that OU played. I don't recall anyone here crying about that. If possible maybe SC needs to take a look at the type of players she recruits. I don't want to see any player lady or man hurt but those thinking basketball isn't a contact sport are living in the past. IMO truly if you going to be mad..get mad at the who is responsible for the product on the floor.

+1

 

[got mulk??]

As an avid BU fan, I by no means condone or agree with a huge majority of what Kim says. She tends to speak without thinking it through first, but her coaching ability is quite remarkable. The second fastest to 500 wins only behind her friend Leon Barmore. You may not agree with her strategy on defense being physical, but that is what the game has become. I remember the days of Sheila Lambert, Mary Lowry, and Amber Seaton when the game was more of a finesse game. Those players wouldn't stand a chance in today's game. You have to learn how to adjust. Now, I was caught off guard by Cox's swing but her physical backing down Carter in the paint before was fine. Being passive down low will not pay off aggressiveness is the key.