Poor FT shooting is all on Kruger

[Big Old Booger]

If you develop the proper technique, you completely eliminate the "mental" and just go through your process.

This is a great point.

Also, I can remember Johnny Gilbert was a horrible FT shooter when he first came to OU. He had this funky one-handed shot that was just ugly. By the time he left, he made way more than he missed. His form had completely changed. Was that because he decided to do it all himself, or was KS and his staff helping him change his form over the years to improve his FT shooting?

 

[AdaSooner]

If you're technique is correct, you should NEVER have a "bad day" from the line. Hell, there is no one even guarding you.

Hey, Highjumper! Good to see you back! You're one poster who has the right to say he's an expert on the subject of basketball.

That said, while I agree with what you say about practicing a technique to achieve a repeatable stroke that produces positive results, there are times when nearly all good free throw shooters have a bad day, at least for them. Case in point, Steven Pledger, a 90% free throw shooter who had only missed 7 the entire season was 1-4 in the Mizzou game. It happens to everyone eventually, no matter how much they practice.

Back on topic, I disagree with the OP's claim that free throw shooting is on Kruger. Coaches can work with players to improve their set up, technique and practice habits. But if they're not willing to put in the time on their own to get better, chances are they will never be more than average free throw shooters at best.

 

[Big Old Booger]

Hey, Highjumper! Good to see you back! You're one poster who has the right to say he's an expert on the subject of basketball.

That said, while I agree with what you say about practicing a technique to achieve a repeatable stroke that produces positive results, there are times when nearly all good free throw shooters have a bad day, at least for them. Case in point, Steven Pledger, a 90% free throw shooter who had only missed 7 the entire season was 1-4 in the Mizzou game. It happens to everyone eventually, no matter how much they practice.

Back on topic, I disagree with the OP's claim that free throw shooting is on Kruger. Coaches can work with players to improve their set up, technique and practice habits. But if they're not willing to put in the time on their own to get better, chances are they will never be more than average free throw shooters at best.

Understood.

When I was in HS, we had to make a certain number of FT's at the end of practice before we could go shower and go home. It's been about 20 years since I played HS ball, so maybe things have changed but we were a good FT shooting team. I don't really know all the ins/outs of the NCAA rules on practice time, so what campbest said makes sense that it would be more on the players but seems to me the coach could imply that so-and-so needs to make X amount of FT's or something?

Like you said though, sometimes players have off nights and Pledger had one the other night. It wouldn't have mattered how many he practiced.

I know the football coaches imply this kind of thing to their players because a player a few years back recorded a conversation between him and Martinez. Why can't the basketball coaches do the same? (I'm actually joking with this last sentence :ez-laugh

 

[highjumper]

Good to hear from you Ada. I'm basing my theory on what I have seen and done. Don't know if you remember when Jim Poteet (former HC at Bethany Nazarene) made the news for his PHD dissertation of the "Dichotomy (sp) of the foul shot". He did a couple years research and found that it is unbelievable how incorrectly we teach kids to shoot foul shots. I can personally vouch for his reliability from working with kids myself. Its so very simple, I have seen him hit 100 in a row left handed, then 100 in a row right handed. He spent 30 minutes with our HS kids a few years back and increased the team average 7% immediately. Put his theories into play myself, even at my "advanced" age and it is amazing the difference you can make if you do it right.

 

[AdaSooner]

Good to hear from you Ada. I'm basing my theory on what I have seen and done. Don't know if you remember when Jim Poteet (former HC at Bethany Nazarene) made the news for his PHD dissertation of the "Dichotomy (sp) of the foul shot". He did a couple years research and found that it is unbelievable how incorrectly we teach kids to shoot foul shots. I can personally vouch for his reliability from working with kids myself. Its so very simple, I have seen him hit 100 in a row left handed, then 100 in a row right handed. He spent 30 minutes with our HS kids a few years back and increased the team average 7% immediately. Put his theories into play myself, even at my "advanced" age and it is amazing the difference you can make if you do it right.

I remember the name, but I'm not familiar with the news story you mentioned.

Any chance you might be in a position to teach the technique to OU's players. Kruger appears to be the type of coach who would be open to anything that could help. He certainly doesn't strike me as a control freak who would be intimidated by the offer. I'm serious. Why don't you consider it?

 

[highjumper]

I remember the name, but I'm not familiar with the news story you mentioned.

Any chance you might be in a position to teach the technique to OU's players. Kruger appears to be the type of coach who would be open to anything that could help. He certainly doesn't strike me as a control freak who would be intimidated by the offer. I'm serious. Why don't you consider it?

I've met him and talked with him - really nice guy. But no, I would never do that - I'm sure he has enough folks (fans) trying to tell him what to do. Might bring up the Poteet thing when I get to know him better.

 

[AdaSooner]

Understood.

When I was in HS, we had to make a certain number of FT's at the end of practice before we could go shower and go home. It's been about 20 years since I played HS ball, so maybe things have changed but we were a good FT shooting team. I don't really know all the ins/outs of the NCAA rules on practice time, so what campbest said makes sense that it would be more on the players but seems to me the coach could imply that so-and-so needs to make X amount of FT's or something?

Like you said though, sometimes players have off nights and Pledger had one the other night. It wouldn't have mattered how many he practiced.

I know the football coaches imply this kind of thing to their players because a player a few years back recorded a conversation between him and Martinez. Why can't the basketball coaches do the same? (I'm actually joking with this last sentence :ez-laugh

Your point about the importance of practicing fundamentals like free throw shooting back in the day is a good one. I played in an era where the emphasis was on the basics, too. Unfortunately, kids today want to spend their time on shooting jump shots, particularly long range bombs from three point distance. When they get older, it's all about dunking the ball to emulate their favorite college and NBA players.

As for Pledger, I really don't know how many free throws he takes outside of practice? But I do know that he routinely shoots 500 or more shots from behind the arc on his own several times each week in the off season. That was confirmed by his coach in Virginia who knows him well.

I'm sure that number drops some during the season due to school work. Yet, I have to believe that a player with his dedication to practicing to get better, spends some of that time on the free throw line. That's one of the reasons he's a 90% shooter.

 

[AdaSooner]

I've met him and talked with him - really nice guy. But no, I would never do that - I'm sure he has enough folks (fans) trying to tell him what to do. Might bring up the Poteet thing when I get to know him better.

I understand completely. I would be reluctant to do it, too, if I was in your shoes. Still, when you get better acquainted, it might be a suggestion he would appreciate.

Don't be a stranger! You should stop by more often and get involved in our discussions when you can.

 

[Mr.B!!!]

I'm sure he has enough folks (fans) trying to tell him what to do.

He seemed very receptive when I told him I thought Osby should probably play down in post prior to the season. Also told him it would be a really good idea to get that kid from Wyoming in and he appeared to appreciate the advice. He was a little less receptive to my idea about getting Hollis back [but wearing a disguise] and renaming him Stagger Lee.

 

[MsProudSooner]

Where did Coach Poteet do his PHD? If he did it at OU, a copy of it should be in the library.

 

[highjumper]

Where did Coach Poteet do his PHD? If he did it at OU, a copy of it should be in the library.

OSU, I think. I can find out for you. I might ask him for a copy. I'm sure he has several laying around.

 

[SoonerBounce13]

so if Poteet's practice on shooting a free throw is so simple, what is it?

 

[highjumper]

so if Poteet's practice on shooting a free throw is so simple, what is it?

Well, as briefly as I can: We are outcome oriented rather than process oriented. Simply simplify the process and concentrate on the process and the outcome will become better. The process - toe on the line, middle finger on the air hole, shoot - no dribble, no spin of the ball in the hands, just toe the line and shoot. DO NOT think about hitting or missing, just the process - takes the mental aspect out of it. That does 2 things: (1) it makes the "process" very simple and removes all the actions extraneous to "shooting the ball" and (2) allows the player to practice more efficiently - for instance, if I am just toeing the line and shooting while you are dribbling a couple times, spinning the ball in your hands, etc, then shooting, in the same amount of time I'll get in 2-3 times more practice shots than you.

Don't take time on the line, just shoot. How many times have you heard a coach jump up and yell "damnit kid, concentrate". Well that's just what they do and stare a hole in the rim. According to Poteet, it is a scientifically proven fact that once you focus on the rim for more than 2 seconds, you begin to lose focus. Yes, they need to concentrate, but on the process.

This process also more closely assymilates shooting from the field. When shooting from the field, the kid doesn't take a couple dribbles, spin the ball in his hands, stare at the hoop and shoot. He has to shoot quickly and without hesitation. Much closer to the process of shooting a foul shot by Poteet's method. There's a lot more to it, of course, but that's basically the important parts.

Friend of mine adopted this process, practiced, began entering masters free throw events all around the state and region - has never lost.

 

[DenverSooner]

I don't know the person's name but there is a guy that teaches technique on shooting 3 point shots and has outstanding results. The guy can apparently out shoot most college players in a practice setting because he is all about fundamentals and process. I wonder if it is the same guy you are referencing.

 

[highjumper]

I don't know the person's name but there is a guy that teaches technique on shooting 3 point shots and has outstanding results. The guy can apparently out shoot most college players in a practice setting because he is all about fundamentals and process. I wonder if it is the same guy you are referencing.

No, I don't think so, Denver. Poteet is all about foul shooting. But your comment about "process", I think hits the spot, whether its hitting a golf ball, your tennis stroke or shooting. Like the term "he's got it grooved"

 

[SoonerBounce13]

would be interesting to see how many coaches teach this approach. if it was as effective as you say, you would think more coaches would use it.

But how many times have we hit a bad golf shot after several practice swings and then drop another ball and hit again with out thinking or practicing and it turns out to be a good shot?

 

[highjumper]

would be interesting to see how many coaches teach this approach. if it was as effective as you say, you would think more coaches would use it.

But how many times have we hit a bad golf shot after several practice swings and then drop another ball and hit again with out thinking or practicing and it turns out to be a good shot?

Truth is, 13, (1) by the time a coach gets to that level, he's probably so engrained in his methods that he's not interested in new things, (2) probably not many coaches are aware of it since it is just an obscure PHD dissertation by a former NAIA coach (3) Talking about it to an old teammate of mine who is a D-1 assistant for many years, he really believes in it and says it's an ego thing with coaches.

After about 30 minutes of observation, my son's HS coach was convinced and continued to teach the method. I work with kids shooting the ball and they don't like it at first. I just ask them to give it 2 weeks and shoot 200 a day this way and if they still don't like it, then go back to their method. Have NEVER had a kid after the 2 weeks want to change back. And, as far as hitting the occasional bad golf shot, I didn't say this process would turn a kid into a 100% foul shooter. Just improvement. You might try it (with an open mind). I was skeptical at first, tried it and it really makes a difference.

 

[AdaSooner]

While we're on the topic of free throw shooting, I have a question for the board that I have wondered about a lot lately.

Does anyone have an opinion on the effects stepping away from the free throw line to slap hands with teammates has on free throw shooting? A few years ago players rarely moved away from the line, whether they made the shot or missed. They simply set up and took the second shot, providing one was awarded.

It seems to me that this popular practice of moving away from the line we see in every college and NBA game now breaks the concentration, rythmn and timing of the shooter. If the shot is short or long, the shooter already has a feel for what he needs to do to make the next one. Same thing for a make. The outcome of that first shot is programmed into the brain and then transferred to the body parts that create the shot.

Thoughts?

 

[SoonerSpock]

While we're on the topic of free throw shooting, I have a question for the board that I have wondered about a lot lately.

Does anyone have an opinion on the effects stepping away from the free throw line to slap hands with teammates has on free throw shooting? A few years ago players rarely moved away from the line, whether they made the shot or missed. They simply set up and took the second shot, providing one was awarded.

It seems to me that this popular practice of moving away from the line we see in every college and NBA game now breaks the concentration, rythmn and timing of the shooter. If the shot is short or long, the shooter already has a feel for what he needs to do to make the next one. Same thing for a make. The outcome of that first shot is programmed into the brain and then transferred to the body parts that create the shot.

Thoughts?

Who knows, but if you were using the Poteet process advocated by highjumper it appears to me it would have no bearing as you would not have any focus on what you did previously on a missed free throw. Your focus would be on your process to make the next free throw. Place the foot on the line, middle finger on the air hole and shoot. The process becomes a matter of keeping it simple. Think only of the process don't clutter your mind with extraneous bull****.

 

[AdaSooner]

Who knows, but if you were using the Poteet process advocated by highjumper it appears to me it would have no bearing as you would not have any focus on what you did previously on a missed free throw. Your focus would be on your process to make the next free throw. Place the foot on the line, middle finger on the air hole and shoot. The process becomes a matter of keeping it simple. Think only of the process don't clutter your mind with extraneous bull****.

Agreed. But how many players do you know who use the Poteet technique?