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[Section31]

Not to mention that Texas' largest margin of victory prior to last night in Norman was 10, and yes, they could have lost by 30 last night. It was a 20 point game the entire second half.

Not saying you're completely off base, but NOW we're "guestimating" what the score COULD have been????

I didn't see too many bench players in the game for Texas last night.

Let's stay half-way reasonable in this thread (everyone has been for the most part)...

 

[campbest]

Not saying you're completely off base, but NOW we're "guestimating" what the score COULD have been????

I didn't see too many bench players in the game for Texas last night.

Let's stay half-way reasonable in this thread (everyone has been for the most part)...

Agree, the estimating a plausible final score is tricky.

With that said, that was by far the most uninterested UT has looked in a second half since conference started, save the Tech game at home. They acted like they wanted to just get on the bus and go home.

 

[campbest]

One of my prouder moments on the hardwood as I was going into the 9th grade so I had to compete against varsity level competition. The guy who won first place played and started at OSU under Sutton.

Easy to splash jumpers when no one is guarding you, BOB.

 

[Big Old Booger]

Easy to splash jumpers when no one is guarding you, BOB.

Well...about 60 other campers didn't do that good, so it's not that easy. :woot

 

[bgrch1350]

Sorry, but the numbers don't back you up.

In 1995, Sampson's first season, we played eight games (if you include the conference tourney) against conference foes who were ranked at the time we played them.

Here are the numbers for Sampson's tenure:

1995 -- 8
1996 -- 3
1997 -- 5
1998 -- 2
1999 -- 2
2000 -- 7
2001 -- 6
2002 -- 5
2003 -- 5
2004 -- 7
2005 -- 5
2006 -- 2

That's an average of 4.75 conference games per season against rank opponents.

Here are the numbers under Capel:

2007 -- 7
2008 -- 6
2009 -- 3
2010 -- 5
2011 -- 3 (with 3 more to come, assuming Mizzou, A&M and KU remain ranked)

That's an average of 5.4 per season.

Sorry, but that's not nearly a big enough difference to explain the disparity.

Well if your going to do this you might as well do it right. Don't count Conf tournaments and don't count teams if they weren't rated at the end of the season. I see you counted teams that were ranked w/in the 1st few weeks of the conference but not at the end. What they are ranked at the end of the season is what they truly were ranked.

 

[jmizzy4ou]

So he gets a pass on three rough seasons? His feet aren't to be held to the fire until 2012?

Having talent on hand is part of being a head coach at the college level.
If we don't see a significant improvement next season -- and I mean a trip to the Big Dance -- we will be less than an afterthought nationally by the following season.

The point is not that some of us expected us to stay within ten points of a top ten team last night, it's that the program has fallen so far that we're now chastised for those expectations. We're now expected, it seems, to calmly accept blowout losses at home.

You see Sky, this is what I disagree with about your statements:

Do you remember when KS was coaching, and the dissenters constantly railed on him for not being able to land Mickey D's recruits, and not being able to win the conference, and consistently get out of the 1st/2nd round of the tourney?? Do you remember those days?? I'm sure that you do because you and I both were 2 of the posters who supported/defended KS. Those posters/fans who became known as "Cleti", use to say that the "Pumpers" were always going to be satisfied with losing to KU, and getting beat by lesser teams in the tourney. They even dismissed his Final 4 run by saying that he only got there because he had a " special player" named Hollis Price. They went on to say that we would never be a threat to win it all with KS as OUr coach. Those posters were adamant that guys like you and I were satisfied with being 1st or 2nd round players, and we were trying to convince them to be the same. Does any of that sound familiar??

Were they wrong?? Did they have too high expectations at a " football school"? That is what many use to say in retaliation, OU would never land big time recruits at a football school. Remember that?? Well, KS finally exited, and JC came aboard and immediately landed some Mickey D's all americans. Fans were giddy because JC had done something that many felt KS would never do, land big time recruits. Do you remember that??

My question is who's expectations were realistic?? Which group of fans actually were trying to force the others to be satisfied?? Certainly the perception of each group was that they were/are right, and they won't be changed. I personally believe that most of us see the problems. Many of us are willing to let the coach have a chance to correct what last yrs disaster caused.... Lesson learned with the Burger Boys.....

At times, just as you feel that you are being asked to accept losing, or staying calm when we don't compete, I feel like sometimes I am being asked or forced to take a hardline stance against OUr coach before I think he deserves a hardline. The situation is similar to the KS days in the face of the fans... One group feels like the coach should be roasted, the other feels like we should have patience. No different than the KS days..... IMO

I don't think anyone is really making excuses or asking you to accept losing. I'm sure that if things don't turn soon, Joe C and Boren will make a move. Until then, many of us are just trying to stay positive and support the team... Because a poster doesn't rip the staff after every loss, does not mean that said poster is ok with losing. Sometimes it just means that said poster sees nothing changed by furious fans who rant and rave on a message board...

 

[Sooner04]

Where do you get this? I am pretty sure Sampson faced a Missouri team that went undefeated in conference play.

No, that was Billy's final season....1994. That Missouri team lost to Arizona in the Elite 8.

Only year the Big 12 has ever been really "bad" was in '99. Pitiful year for the conference. Texas won the league and they weren't any good. Nebraska was as good as anybody and they got left out of the Tournament because the committee gave us a 13-seed. Nevermind that Nebraska just trounced us in Norman. They had the POY that year as well, Venson Hamilton. Anybody remember him? God they stomped us that night.

1999 NCAA Tournament

Kansas got a 6-seed.
Texas got a 7-seed.
Missouri got an 8-seed.
O-State got a 9-seed.

We were the only team to make the second weekend, bowing out to Michigan State in St. Louis. That was the worst year of the Big 12. Bar none, no question. Other than that, it's been a solid conference year in and year out.

 

[152219]

No, that was Billy's final season....1994. That Missouri team lost to Arizona in the Elite 8.

Only year the Big 12 has ever been really "bad" was in '99. Pitiful year for the conference. Texas won the league and they weren't any good. Nebraska was as good as anybody and they got left out of the Tournament because the committee gave us a 13-seed. Nevermind that Nebraska just trounced us in Norman. They had the POY that year as well, Venson Hamilton. Anybody remember him? God they stomped us that night.

1999 NCAA Tournament

Kansas got a 6-seed.
Texas got a 7-seed.
Missouri got an 8-seed.
O-State got a 9-seed.

We were the only team to make the second weekend, bowing out to Michigan State in St. Louis. That was the worst year of the Big 12. Bar none, no question. Other than that, it's been a solid conference year in and year out.

7th in the Sagarin and barely ahead of the Missouri Valley
http://www.usatoday.com/sports/sagarin/bkc9899.htm

 

[colston15]

We should've started a meltdown thread before game. Listen, if you didn't know this was coming, I don't know what to tell you. Texas is a great team with more talent at every position.

Acting like last night was some sort of revelation about the plight of our program is totally dramatic and misplaced. Getting handled on your home floor by a team that is waaaaay better than you says one thing, "That team is a lot better than us." It doesn't say a damn thing about our program now, or where it will be in the future.

If you'll recall, we beat that same Texas squad last season in Norman, and did so rather handily. What's it worth now? Nothing. What was last night worth? Nothing, not in the grand scheme of things anyways.

If you think Capel is the guy, great. If you don't, fine. But please, stop trying to micro-analyze every game to prove your point.

Whether you're pro-Capel or not, at some point you have to accept this year as growth from last. We play hard, the guys want to be here, and it means something to them. Given the time frame of things it wasn't realistic to expect this season to provide an overly successful team and a team with the qualities listed above.

If you think that's unacceptable, okay, if you find acceptable, okay. But as I mentioned earlier, using each game as validation to your agenda is a bogus formula.

Especially games against superior, or inferior competition. Losing to Texas (big) and beating Coppin St. (big) are on the same level in terms of use in any sort evalution. That is to say, they're almost useless. Now, games against OSU, Baylor, Nebraska, A&M, etc. are excellent measuring sticks for this team and coaching staff. Those are the games that we can and should compete 'til the end in, and even win a few. (As we already have)

As an example, I contend our worst losses of the season are to Cincy and A&M. Those are teams we're capable of not only competing with, but defeating, especially at home. We did neither against either. That's reason to be upset.

 

[skyvue]

Well if your going to do this you might as well do it right. Don't count Conf tournaments and don't count teams if they weren't rated at the end of the season. I see you counted teams that were ranked w/in the 1st few weeks of the conference but not at the end. What they are ranked at the end of the season is what they truly were ranked.

I counted conference tourney games for both Sampson and Capel, so that's a moot point.

And my source of info didn't list end of the season rankings. Do your own homework if you care to. I stand by my info; it supports my point.

The notion that the Big 12 used to suck but is great now is simply not true.

 

[DenverSooner]

We should've started a meltdown thread before game. Listen, if you didn't know this was coming, I don't know what to tell you. Texas is a great team with more talent at every position.

Acting like last night was some sort of revelation about the plight of our program is totally dramatic and misplaced. Getting handled on your home floor by a team that is waaaaay better than you says one thing, "That team is a lot better than us." It doesn't say a damn thing about our program now, or where it will be in the future.

If you'll recall, we beat that same Texas squad last season in Norman, and did so rather handily. What's it worth now? Nothing. What was last night worth? Nothing, not in the grand scheme of things anyways.

If you think Capel is the guy, great. If you don't, fine. But please, stop trying to micro-analyze every game to prove your point.

Whether you're pro-Capel or not, at some point you have to accept this year as growth from last. We play hard, the guys want to be here, and it means something to them. Given the time frame of things it wasn't realistic to expect this season to provide an overly successful team and a team with the qualities listed above.

If you think that's unacceptable, okay, if you find acceptable, okay. But as I mentioned earlier, using each game as validation to your agenda is a bogus formula.

Especially games against superior, or inferior competition. Losing to Texas (big) and beating Coppin St. (big) are on the same level in terms of use in any sort evalution. That is to say, they're almost useless. Now, games against OSU, Baylor, Nebraska, A&M, etc. are excellent measuring sticks for this team and coaching staff. Those are the games that we can and should compete 'til the end in, and even win a few. (As we already have)

I agree with this. This is one of Capel's better jobs at OU. In fact, I might go so far as to say it is his best job at OU yet simply because he had so much more to work with when he went to the great 8.

I actually have reasonably high hopes for next season and believe OU will be a NCAA Tournament team or darn close. OU should be better than OSU, ISU, KSU, CU, Tech and probably Baylor. I think OU will be able to compete with Missouri, A&M and Nebraska (possibly even better than some of those teams). I don't expect OU to be as good as KU or Texas next season. But if I am correct this means OU will finish in the 3-7 range of the conference.

Firing Capel would risk losing players and OU doesn't need to lose any players. OU needs to get experience along with slowing improving the quality of players.

 

[thebigabd]

OU should be better than OSU, ISU, KSU, CU, Tech and probably Baylor.

Woah.. slown down there.

I think OU will be able to compete with Missouri, A&M and Nebraska

Nebraska wont be in the conference.

 

[skyvue]

The situation is similar to the KS days in the face of the fans... One group feels like the coach should be roasted, the other feels like we should have patience. No different than the KS days..... IMO

I understand your point, but in my view, it's quite different from the Sampson days in one very key way: We were winning then, and yet the Sampson haters were still complaining -- even after Sooner victories, if we didn't win by a big enough margin.

That's very different from now. You'll never hear me complain (as the ABS crowd used to) if we win by too small a margin or lose earlier in the tourney than we might wish. A win's a win, in my view, and upsets happen all the time in the tourney.

And the problems we're facing now aren't entirely attributable to the departure of those two McDAAs -- not by a long shot. Capel's just plain whiffed on too many recruits. And where, five years in, is a recognizable style, an indication that he knows exactly how he wants his teams to play, what he wants to emphasize?

It really comes down to whether we trust the guy who dug the hole to get us out of it. That's always a tricky call, in any field of endeavor, and I wish I had faith Coach Capel is the guy to get it done, but he just hasn't convinced me. It pains me, believe me, but he just hasn't.

Under Sampson, we had a knack for playing over our heads in big games. It seems to me we have rarely done that under Coach Capel. We certainly didn't last night. Quite the opposite. A full house and a heated rivalry, and we were never even in the game. Not even in the early going.

 

[skyvue]

I actually have reasonably high hopes for next season and believe OU will be a NCAA Tournament team or darn close. OU should be better than OSU, ISU, KSU, CU, Tech and probably Baylor. I think OU will be able to compete with Missouri, A&M and Nebraska (possibly even better than some of those teams).

Wow. Osby better be a monster from the jump, then, given that he's the only major addition we're making (I've not seen Goff play, but it's been my impression that few here seem to view him as a real difference-maker) and we lose Cade Davis, who, though he's some posters' favorite dog to kick, has been very key this season.

I dearly hope Osby is every bit as good as advertised, but I think Capel's made a tactical error in touting him so highly and often. Sometimes it's better to play one's cards close to the vest and not put pressure on a player who's yet to don the crimson and cream outside of practice.

 

[Edmond_Sooner]

Good discussion guys...

Believe it or not, i didnt start the thread to call people out...i understand what a loss like last night will do to fans...I have been one this year that has been swayed one way or the other by emotions throughout the season, but now stand firm in Capels corner as well as the roster we currently play with for the rest of the season...

They are overachievers...period...talent is there in spots, some solid Big XII talent...but we need a couple of superstars...Cam may be one someday, but right now he is amazing one night and a question mark the next...so, basically a freshman...Cade is doing some amazing things for this team that go unnoticed because most cant look past the rainbows...you can go down the roster evaluating like this...

Simply put, Texas last night is a Final Four type team...i'm not a moral victory guy, and i really hope they dont take one from last night cause it was ugly...but even though some of us through our Crimson glasses tortured ourselves into thinking they could pull one out, i think we all knew we didnt stand a chance...That team is just on another level...

Those that felt called out, i apologize...you have to admit it is funny looking at those who are getting defensive though...on both sides...

 

[DenverSooner]

bigabd, OSU lost Williams and is not very good this year. They lose Pilgram, Sidorkas and Moses. That is 4 of their top 7 or 8 guys. I think OU beats them in Norman and may finish higher than OSU in the conference.

I am assuming Perry Jones goes pro at Baylor. They are not that great with Perry and Dunn. Anthony Jones, Quincy Jones and Walton are respectable players but they will need a lot of help to be top 6 Big XII team.

CU loses Higgins and Knutson plus I think Burks will go pro. Maybe I am too optimistic on Burks. Regardless CU is not any better than OU and will lose two of its top 5 guys.

Tech is not very good and loses Singletary, Tairu and Robinson.

ISU is not very good and they lose some key players.

KSU is falling apart, not that good and they lose Pullen.

I expect OU to be better than all of those teams next year. OSU is the toughest of the bunch.

Nebraska is respectable but not great.

Missouri is not that great but doesn't lose much so perhaps they will improve more than OU and still be better.

A&M loses Homles and Walkup. Will Middleton go pro? I was think Labeau was a senior when I first wrote this but he will be back.

 

[DenverSooner]

Wow. Osby better be a monster from the jump, then, given that he's the only major addition we're making (I've not seen Goff play, but it's been my impression that few here seem to view him as a real difference-maker) and we lose Cade Davis, who, though he's some posters' favorite dog to kick, has been very key this season.

I dearly hope Osby is every bit as good as advertised, but I think Capel's made a tactical error in touting him so highly and often. Sometimes it's better to play one's cards close to the vest and not put pressure on a player who's yet to don the crimson and cream outside of practice.

OU will add Osby and Goff plus has two scholarships to give (I am assumigng Hardrick is gone). They are not that far off. Fitzgerald, Pledger, Blair, Clark, Washington, Neal and Newell is a respectable core team. All of those guys will have respectable experience. A couple of players can really improve that group.

 

[Section31]

I understand your point, but in my view, it's quite different from the Sampson days in one very key way: We were winning then, and yet the Sampson haters were still complaining -- even after Sooner victories, if we didn't win by a big enough margin.

That's very different from now. You'll never hear me complain (as the ABS crowd used to) if we win by too small a margin or lose earlier in the tourney than we might wish. A win's a win, in my view, and upsets happen all the time in the tourney.

And the problems we're facing now aren't entirely attributable to the departure of those two McDAAs -- not by a long shot. Capel's just plain whiffed on too many recruits. And where, five years in, is a recognizable style, an indication that he knows exactly how he wants his teams to play, what he wants to emphasize?

It really comes down to whether we trust the guy who dug the hole to get us out of it. That's always a tricky call, in any field of endeavor, and I wish I had faith Coach Capel is the guy to get it done, but he just hasn't convinced me. It pains me, believe me, but he just hasn't.

Under Sampson, we had a knack for playing over our heads in big games. It seems to me we have rarely done that under Coach Capel. We certainly didn't last night. Quite the opposite. A full house and a heated rivalry, and we were never even in the game. Not even in the early going.

That used to just torch me...we'd win and people would complain.

I DO believe though, there's not much difference in those "fans" and the "fans" that pretty much only post to complain after a loss and post very rarely after a win - which has been pretty common this year.

 

[Romulus]

This place would be burning down right now if Sampson was the coach, not sure why Capel gets a pass

 

[thebigabd]

This place would be burning down right now if Sampson was the coach, not sure why Capel gets3-4 years worth of passes

Fixed it for you.