Why I would like to see 2 bigs and 3 guards in the tournament

[Oliver Hardy]

This is just something I am thinking about today and I decided I would really like to see this in the tournament.

I'd like Sherri to go with 2 bigs consistently and then 3 guards -- a more traditional line-up. Although perhaps risky to make such a change at this time, I think it may pay large dividends.

Technically we've already seen her do this with Maddie at the 4 quite a bit in recent weeks.

Here's my thinking:

With the guards we have Ortiz, Peyton, Sharane, Carter, Edwards, Williams, Wyatt and even Kornet we have a number of people who can shoot, bring the ball up quickly, even rebound, etc.

By going to a taller front line -- and by that I mean Kay-Kay and Maddie or Kay-Kay and Vivi -- we gain in rebounding significantly. They can all consistently hit the bunnies and we improve our ability to block out and block shots. As Syb pointed out, Maddie was (and may still be) leading the team in blocks. Vivi is more physical. Kay-Kay is the big scorer. All are active.

The biggest gain I see, however, is that with the two bigs underneath, we would be able to dump the ball down low when the other team collapses on our guards driving (which has been a big problem for us much of the year).

It would open up the lane and the mid-ranger jumper that Goiya and Peyton excel at. We could more effectively stretch defenses for one-on-one or pure isolation plays. It would also free up more open 3-point shots.

Another think I like is with our 3 (Sharane) we get someone who can rebound like crazy and drive other teams nuts. You move Peyton to the two, which free her up even more for drives and those free-throw line rebound she's been getting.

I think this would be a great new kink to throw at teams either consistently or on occasion in the tournaments. It keeps the other teams guessing. It forces them to try to match up with both our height and phsyical play and our speed.

Finally it could really give us a high-low game. Kay-Kay can hit that free throw line to the arc shot -- and Maddie sure as heck can.

There are downsides.

We are "Big" poor beyond those three. Treece may be able to give minutes. Kornet may be able to give some, even Kellog might give us 2 or 3 minutes. But we can't expect much if we have to rely on them for any length of time. The good thing is you could always revert to the 4-guard offense.

Another downside is just the fact you haven't done it too purely too much this season. I can't remember a time any other big, except Maddie has been on the floor underneath with Kay-Kay. Kornet is 6-1, but I don't count her for obvious reasons.

Just food for fodder and discussion as we head toward tournament play.

 

[sybarite]

I see this year as a developmental year. I don't think we will accomplish much by changing styles just before the tournament. We are pretty good as it is, and we won't beat UConn by changing styles. We have to get better at what we do.

I see this as preparation for next year. I have high hopes of a Final Four team next year. I think we have six people, maybe seven, on whom we will be able to count, and they should profit from a year of working together. I am reasonably confident that we will see good performances from:
Kay Kay
Peyton
Gioya
Gabbi
Maddie
Vivi
and maybe T'Ona in her role.

If we can get a couple more to provide some meaningful minutes, that is more than most teams have, even good teams.

By the end of this year, we did see that this group has an upside that can beat Baylor. It has a downside that can lose. But, experience should make the upside more consistent. I'm not as concerned about the style of play as I am about whether the players that we have fit together in some style. I think they are doing that.

There is a big difference in the styles of UConn and Notre Dame. Yet, they are both outstanding year after year. UConn tends to play only six or seven, and they tend to be more power based. ND tends to use about eight or nine, and they almost never have a prototype center. Their posts are really power forwards, and they usually have two or three.

I tend to see Sherri more in the ND style than in the Geno style. It is interesting who she is bringing in, and I wonder how they will be used. I wouldn't be surprised if we don't have a 6-9 shooting forward on offense and post on defense.

I don't think we have the experience at the right places to change styles right now, and I'm not sure that it is Sherri's forte.

 

[Oliver Hardy]

Certainly interesting thoughts. It will be interesting to see what system Sherri plays next year when the cup is even more full and the year after that when it is at the brim hopefully.

 

[35TangoTango]

We've run variations of the 4-out motion offense for most of the last 19 years, and it's not likely to change. If you can get a big that has a face the basket game, great. But that's not Vivi. I really don't see Maddie as any more of a big that Sharane. Maddie has some inches on Sharane, but not near the strength to muscle inside.

I think the goal is to recruit a power forward that meets the specifications. There's just not so many of them.

As for this tournament, I think we dance with the one that brung us.

 

[jerry]

We've run variations of the 4-out motion offense for most of the last 19 years, and it's not likely to change. If you can get a big that has a face the basket game, great. But that's not Vivi. I really don't see Maddie as any more of a big that Sharane. Maddie has some inches on Sharane, but not near the strength to muscle inside.

I think the goal is to recruit a power forward that meets the specifications. There's just not so many of them.

As for this tournament, I think we dance with the one that brung us.

Still miss Amanda Thompson. Wish we had someone like her??

 

[SoonerNorm]

Still miss Amanda Thompson. Wish we had someone like her??

Amanda, Leah, Jo, and Caton were all really tough players. Caton is my favorite player of all time. She wasn't the most gifted but she made up for it in toughness, smarts, effort, and determination.

I think toughness is something this group misses.

 

[BanjoCharley]

I don't know, Maddie seems plenty tough coming back from two ACLs, Peyton seems to have some tough.

 

[35TangoTango]

Maddie (and Peyton) both have plenty of mental toughness. I don't think Maddie has the upper body strength to be the kind of "big" that is being envisioned here.

 

[j2d2]

I like the idea of two bigs down low. I'm not sure that it must mean a change of styles that Sherri and the team couldnt accomodate easily. This bunch play together well (when the moon is right). Sherri ought to be able to tweak a few things and use such a line up to do what Oliver suggests which I think would result in really shoring up a weakness, ie defense and rebounding.

 

[tycat947]

Maddie (and Peyton) both have plenty of mental toughness. I don't think Maddie has the upper body strength to be the kind of "big" that is being envisioned here.

Agreed. There's plenty of toughness on this team. This team just lead for most of the game against Hypocrite U and fell behind by 6 with just a couple of minutes left and found away to win. That doesn't happen by accident especially after not winning 9 times in a row against them. Lack of focus for periods in the game may be part of it. That can be a symptom of youth and they just learn through experience. It would be great experience for this team to get to host 1st and 2nd round games at LNC so hopefully, they can at least make the conference tourney finals and even winning would be better!

 

[SoonerNorm]

Maddie (and Peyton) both have plenty of mental toughness. I don't think Maddie has the upper body strength to be the kind of "big" that is being envisioned here.

Toughness can be more than mental. I will use Blake Griffin as an example. Blake played with an attitude. An attitude that said, "get in my way and I'll run over you!" He was most definitely tough! Caton played with a similar attitude. I have a friend from Ada who knew Caton's high school coach very well. The coach had to continually get onto Caton for being too rough in practice for fear she would hurt the other players. That's what I'm talking about. Step on the court and let the opponent know you will never back down and you will take the game to them. That means go after rebounds like your life depends on it. Be strong with the ball and don't allow yourself to get tied up every time you turn around. That means if you get a half step on the defender make them pay instead of bringing the ball back outside because a defender was close by. Right now, I don't think we have any players who play with a serious attitude. Courtney had it. DRob had it. Just about everyone we have plays a finesse game. Finesse with too many reaching fouls. We need some muscle. We need an attitude. Sherri has mentioned she likes Gioya because she has an attitude and I can see that from time to time. We saw it in Blake every game he played. Sherri has talked about playing with a swagger...a bit cocky. I think she and I are talking about the same thing. Just be tough!

 

[35TangoTango]

Yeah, but attitude and muscle are two different things.

 

[SoonerNorm]

Yeah, but attitude and muscle are two different things.

The kind of muscle I'm talking about is, playing strong. Not that they have to be body builders.

 

[35TangoTango]

The kind of muscle I'm talking about is, playing strong. Not that they have to be body builders.

Yeah, but the examples you used also had plenty of the muscle I'm talking about. My only point there is that no matter how "tough" Maddie would play inside, she would still get pushed around by people who outweigh her by 50 pounds.

 

[YCN]

Yeah, but the examples you used also had plenty of the muscle I'm talking about. My only point there is that no matter how "tough" Maddie would play inside, she would still get pushed around by people who outweigh her by 50 pounds.

I reference this indirectly in a recent post on a different topic. But what's simple is understanding what kind of player Maddie is...

She's not a power forward, that's the 4 position. She's not a "small" forward, because she has the size of most small forwards and the size of many power forwards.

Maddie's a wing (or wing guard/forward, take your pick...) and will be best utilized as such.

 

[Sooners4Life0101]

I've seen Maddie guard the best bigs in the conference from Mcgee-Stafford to Nina Davis- I saw Brynn get maybe one bucket on her and go off on Gioya. etc. ect. She might not be ideal to guard 5's, but no one pushes her around. She is a force on the defensive end- We seem to miss that when discussing her. I don't remember 1 pt from Davis scored on Maddie... I think she is getting the Nina Davis treatment, people are counting her out for being "thin and small". But I've noticed her shutting down the best bigs in the conference, and she's only going to get better. If the girl would ever learn to be aggressive she will be one of the premiere players next season.

 

[sybarite]

I've seen Maddie guard the best bigs in the conference from Mcgee-Stafford to Nina Davis- I saw Brynn get maybe one bucket on her and go off on Gioya. etc. ect. She might not be ideal to guard 5's, but no one pushes her around. She is a force on the defensive end- We seem to miss that when discussing her. I don't remember 1 pt from Davis scored on Maddie... I think she is getting the Nina Davis treatment, people are counting her out for being "thin and small". But I've noticed her shutting down the best bigs in the conference, and she's only going to get better. If the girl would ever learn to be aggressive she will be one of the premiere players next season.

Thank you.

Two years ago, Sharane was starting. Kay Kay had injured her Achilles. Peyton was playing for A&M. Maddie was rehabbing an ACL.

A year ago, Sharane and Gioya were starting. Kay Kay logged a lot of minutes switching off with Griffin. Peyton was sitting out a redshirt year, but she was able to practice. Maddie was rehabbing an ACL.

OK. So, this year, Maddie gets her chance to play a little. I've seen remarks that she had so many turnovers that Sherri had a quick hook for her. She had the sixth most minutes on the team in both cumulative and conference play. The hook couldn't have been all that quick. As much as Vivi had to come in for Kay Kay, you would have thought that Vivi would have had the sixth most minutes. But, it was Maddie.

I'm not even going to tell you what you should already know. The play-by-play people tell it. Tubbs tells it. The network announcers tell it. Maddie is a problem, not to Sherri for not scoring or making turnovers. She is a length problem. Pay attention, and you'll see what they mean.

I didn't expect Maddie to be all that into the flow of things yet this year. She hasn't even had the opportunity to practice basketball for two years. She may as well have been in the Peace Corps to Haiti. She couldn't play or practice. She could just rehab.

If you haven't seen at least two or three plays that just astounded you, you haven't been watching. Based on what I have seen this year, I kind of think that next year will be a break out year. She can score in ways that nobody else that we have can. She can defend any position, and she has. She held Donohoe in check, blocking two of her four shots in Norman. Two of only four!!.

As Sherri says, she has the vision.

 

[SoonerinNC]

I think Sherri likes the 4 guard offense because she likes to use a motion offense.

But at times we seem to be using something closer to the offense we used when Courtney was playing.

Add to that a young team and they are probably still searching for the right combination.

Whatever we are doing we have been pretty stale on offense the last 2 games. Hopefully we will play more like we did against Baylor or against OSU in Norman from here on out.

Carter is a major key. When she was having her hot spell we were really going on offense. They have started double teaming her on her drives and I think that has shaken her confidence a bit. Before that no one could stay with her. She may have to go quicker and only when she has a seam to penetrate. She seems to sit back before she goes and the defense gangs up on her. She has very good passing ability so maybe she needs to start a drive and make a quick pass against the double that they set up to stop her.

 

[Sweetest OU Girl]

Thanks S4L and Syb.

Maddie -effectively a freshman and coming back from serious injury - has been a joy to watch. There is just something about her style of play that attracts attention.

Many on our board excuse Vivi's inconsistency by saying "she is coming back from (one) injury" - and probably that is reasonable. But those same members seem to think Maddie should have been able to come in - after 2 years of such serious injuries - for her VERY FIRST year of play and become an All American.

That is just an unreasonable expectation.

Be patient. It reminds me of all the folks who dissed KK over and over. Sherri saw things some of our members were unable to see. Lately KK has been our most productive player. For heavens sake she made 2nd team All Big-12 - voted by the coaches.

Sherri sees similar things in Maddie that some of our members just have no vision for. Again. Be patient.

 

[Sooners4Life0101]

Thank you.

Two years ago, Sharane was starting. Kay Kay had injured her Achilles. Peyton was playing for A&M. Maddie was rehabbing an ACL.

A year ago, Sharane and Gioya were starting. Kay Kay logged a lot of minutes switching off with Griffin. Peyton was sitting out a redshirt year, but she was able to practice. Maddie was rehabbing an ACL.

OK. So, this year, Maddie gets her chance to play a little. I've seen remarks that she had so many turnovers that Sherri had a quick hook for her. She had the sixth most minutes on the team in both cumulative and conference play. The hook couldn't have been all that quick. As much as Vivi had to come in for Kay Kay, you would have thought that Vivi would have had the sixth most minutes. But, it was Maddie.

I'm not even going to tell you what you should already know. The play-by-play people tell it. Tubbs tells it. The network announcers tell it. Maddie is a problem, not to Sherri for not scoring or making turnovers. She is a length problem. Pay attention, and you'll see what they mean.

I didn't expect Maddie to be all that into the flow of things yet this year. She hasn't even had the opportunity to practice basketball for two years. She may as well have been in the Peace Corps to Haiti. She couldn't play or practice. She could just rehab.

If you haven't seen at least two or three plays that just astounded you, you haven't been watching. Based on what I have seen this year, I kind of think that next year will be a break out year. She can score in ways that nobody else that we have can. She can defend any position, and she has. She held Donohoe in check, blocking two of her four shots in Norman. Two of only four!!.

As Sherri says, she has the vision.

Idk if its just cause she's a pretty basketball player- Thin and smooth, & almost fragile looking- But she absolutely fights. In the Baylor game I saw Nina Davis trying to bully her and she put an elbow right back into her side. Those Texas girls tried to do the same thing and she pushed right back on them too. She's not afraid down there, and she can more than hold her own. She's got a nasty side. And that is why I believe you are right by saying it could be a break out year on the horizon. Looking at the minutes, there are players on the team that have doubled and tripled her playing time. Every game I've watched, I mean its plain as day she's one the top 2-3 players in regard to talent on the team. And IMO she has the highest ceiling. The combination of her fight and getting the raw end on some playing time this season?? It could be the perfect storm... I just really want to see her at her hit that max ceiling, in a Oklahoma uniform, cause I think it will be scary.