Big 12 Tournament permanently in Kansas City?

[Cheno]

That argument doesn't work.

Well fine, but that's been my argument.

KU is getting half those games at home, and never has to see those tough South teams twice. There is something said about facing a team twice, even if KU beats UT in Austin, the game in Lawrence wouldn't be a gimme.

And KU is getting half those games on the road and the South teams never have to face the North teams either. The North has some tough places to win and the North always seems to have another really good team. People just dismiss that fact. The league had 3 top 10 teams last year and two resided in the North. All those South teams only had to play Mizzou once last year. Funny how we seem to forget the details. And Iowa State has the same number of Big 12 titles as OSU, Baylor, A&M, Tech & OU combined.
And you bring up games in Lawrence wouldn't be gimme's well KU has lost one game to a South team in Allen Fieldhouse in the history of the league. Until South teams can start coming into the Fieldhouse and winning once in awhile KU's going to continue winning titles.

It isn't fair, and I guarantee the unbalanced schedule has resulted in KU winning more titles than they'd have won otherwise.

Oh, you guarantee it. Okay, now I believe it. Just like when you swore Self wasn't that good and couldn't win the big game right?
The truth is I'm far much less a KU homer than some of you are anti-KU homers. I hear some outlandish statements about KU. Bill Self can't coach, Cole Aldrich really isn't that good (despite being a projected top 5 pick and 1st team all-american), Brady Morningstar sucks and isn't even close to as good as Cade Davis, AJ can shut down Sherron Collins, and on and on. And those are rational non anti-KU comments. Right? But I suggest that KU wins the Big 12 all the years they have regardless of division and that's outlandish. That's outlandish but Bill Self can't coach is realism. LOL!
But hey, I'll play along....what year then would KU NOT have won the Big 12 had the two divisions been combined? I'd be interested to hear what KU teams weren't the best in the league.

This decade, the South has clearly been stronger, KU has clearly benefited from that and Cheno has argued on numerous occassions that the South was not stronger.

I agree over the decade the South has been stronger. I think there have been particular years though that many hear acted like the South was sooo much better when it was actually quite close. I think last year is a good example. That being said KU still has been the best team all the years they've won and I believe KU would have won if the two divisions were combined. That's what I've said all along.

 

[triplefatty]

the north sucks.

 

[Cheno]

the north sucks.

Your boy Beasley and them had a good team as well Fatty.
And KSU should be good this year based on talent. We'll see if Franko can coach them up.

 

[BoulderSooner]

Well said. I am a lifelong Kansas Citian (who is definitely biased) but there is no city that has supported it like KC. I have attended every Big 8/12 tourney from 1988-present that has been in KC and it is a great event; even more so now with the Sprint Center and P&L District. It seems to me that Dallas could care less about hosting the Big 12 tournament; plus, there's not much around the AA center except the W hotel and N9ne steakhouse (unless there's a lot more that's been built since I was there a year and half ago).

OKC has a good setup for the tournament and I believe they support it as well, plus it's nice to have more of a pro OU crowd. However, I don't think crowd support means as much in the end result (Sampson won back to back years in KC, blowing out KU in front of their "home" crowd in 2002). I would love for it to be here full time, but if it does rotate, it should go between OKC and KC. They have the best set up for the tournament in the most centralized location.

OKC is the only city that really has ever supported the big 12 womens tourney .. and that is a big deal to the conf ....

KC is a great place for the football champ game and i hope it is there at least 1 in every 3 years ...

dallas was terrible for the big 12 baseball and basketball tourneys ..


tulsa will never get a big 12 basketball tourney ...

the ford center after 2010 will be as nice or better than bok or sprint

 

[skyvue]

You are mistaken on this one skyvue. Cheno has consistently said for years that the south is tougher than the north but he has defended KU when it won Big 12 titles because they have beaten the strong south teams in the Big 12, not because they were good enough to beat the weaker north teams.

With all due respect, Norm, I've been reading cheno's posts for years on end -- rest assured he said everything I cited, and often. Has he softened on those opnions since? Perhaps. But there were multiple threads over the years in which he mocked and derided the very notion that KU has benefited from a weak northern division.

And admitting the south is tougher than the north means little if you continue to deny that your team benefited from playing in the weaker division, and that's exactly what cheno did for years.

Other ku fans readily admitted that there was a benefit to KU from the disparity between the divisions -- who wouldn't rather play the tough teams once rather than twice? -- but if cheno's come around to that way of thinking, it's a relatively recent - and welcome -- development.

 

[Cheno]

With all due respect, Norm, I've been reading cheno's posts for years on end -- rest assured he said everything I cited, and often. Has he softened on those opnions since? Perhaps. But there were multiple threads over the years in which he mocked and derided the very notion that KU has benefited from a weak northern division.

And what was the context of those certain threads I "mocked" and "derided".
I'm quite certain they were the threads were certain OU fans stated KU won the conference BECAUSE they had the advantage. That was the reason they won. Just like KU won the '88 title only because it was in KC.
I'll continue to argue against those points. KU has won the Big 12 at a phenomenal rate because they consistently have the best team.
I asked TU with no response so I will ask you...what year(s) did KU win the Big 12 in which they would not have had all the teams been in one division?

 

[SoonerfanTU]

I asked TU with no response so I will ask you...what year(s) did KU win the Big 12 in which they would not have had all the teams been in one division?

There is no way to really answer that. 2002 and 2005 come to mind though. You really going to argue that KU had the better team either of those two years?

 

[Cheno]

There is no way to really answer that. 2002 and 2005 come to mind though. You really going to argue that KU had the better team either of those two years?

Well if there is no way to answer that then how can you "guarantee" KU wouldn't have won more titles like you did? When I make "guarantees" I'm dang well sure I can back them up. But sure I'll play.....

2002: Yes, KU would have won the Big 12 in 2002 if there was only one division. How can you possibly make the case otherwise? That may have been KU's best team. 16-0. Perfect in conference play. OU was 2nd at 14-2. Had OU not lost to Texas Tech then you may have an argument since KU beat OU in Lawrence. It's games like that Texas Tech loss for OU that throw the argument out. In a tight conference race you gotta win games like that.
And the next best two teams in the South (OSU & Texas) KU beat both of them ON THE ROAD. Took care of business. I highly doubt KU would have lost at Tech (beat them twice that year by 27pts in Lawrence and 40pts in the Big 12 tourney) or at Baylor (they won 4 conference games).
So what is your scenario on KU not winning the Big 12 that year? That Baylor would have upset them in Waco. Come 'on dude.

2005: Yeah, I think KU had the best team. They were experienced and picked to win the conference. In fact, when KU struggled that year is when another conference team should have seized the horns and won the conference outright. KU and OU tied at 12-4 and OU beat KU in Norman. So the return game in Lawrence KU would have won giving KU a one game advantage. Again what is your possible scenario that KU doesn't win the league that year in a one division league?

 

[triplefatty]

2004-2005, 2005-2006, 2008-2009 were all "fraud" years for ku.

all titles under roy were legit.