Elite level talent

[luckyc1423]

If I was one of the gifted ones, what is your outlook on the program? I would have to be thinking, "well they currently have several top 100 players and all of their players stock has fallen for the exception of cade and tony, is this going to happen to me? Can Capel coach me?"

Although capel did a great job making blake better, he has done much worse this year making other guys better

 

[NickZepp]

If I was one of the gifted ones, what is your outlook on the program? I would have to be thinking, "well they currently have several top 100 players and all of their players stock has fallen for the exception of cade and tony, is this going to happen to me? Can Capel coach me?"

Although capel did a great job making blake better, he has done much worse this year making other guys better

He made Taylor and AJ better also but those guys want to get better. I don't see that from a lot of this roster right now.

 

[soonerczech]

Really? I don't think TMG's stock has gone anywhere but up. Tiny is having to adjust to actually play in the low post which he had rarely done in high school. RW is just a role player plain and simple. If you look at last year's team, Blake got better, Taylor got better, AJ got better. Before that, Godbold got better and Longar Longar got way better. If Patillo had been able to stick around and provide some more rebounding both O and D, I think we would actually have won 3 or 4 more games.

 

[luckyc1423]

Really? I don't think TMG's stock has gone anywhere but up. Tiny is having to adjust to actually play in the low post which he had rarely done in high school. RW is just a role player plain and simple. If you look at last year's team, Blake got better, Taylor got better, AJ got better. Before that, Godbold got better and Longar Longar got way better. If Patillo had been able to stick around and provide some more rebounding both O and D, I think we would actually have won 3 or 4 more games.

I agree, TMG's stock has rissen...my mistake...but some could say that he has to learn to play with guys that like the ball also (i.e. willie)

 

[NickZepp]

I agree TMG has gotten better. Gallon has gotten worse, Willis shouldn't be playing at this level. This year Cade got better, TMG got better that's really about it. Crocker was about the same. WW was about the same all year. The sad part is going into conference play I felt if guys like Gallon continued to improve we may have made some noise in conference play. Especially with how conference play went. But instead only TMG showed up out of the 4 freshmen on a consistent basis. That just wasn't enough.

 

[SoonerfanTU]

He made Taylor and AJ better also but those guys want to get better. I don't see that from a lot of this roster right now.

Did he really? Or did those players just get older, more experienced, and in Taylor's case, get more minutes?

Kind of like Cade this year. Aside from him driving more in the last 2-3 weeks, he really isn't doing anything "better" then he has his entire career at OU. Shooting percentages are very similiar, and in some cases, lower. He's just getting more minutes, and more shots, b/c there isn't anyone to defer to. That doesn't really make him "better" though.

And I'm not dogging Cade. He and Tony are about the only two guys that I feel play hard "most" of the time.

 

[DenverSooner]

Did he really? Or did those players just get older, more experienced, and in Taylor's case, get more minutes?

Kind of like Cade this year. Aside from him driving more in the last 2-3 weeks, he really isn't doing anything "better" then he has his entire career at OU. Shooting percentages are very similiar, and in some cases, lower. He's just getting more minutes, and more shots, b/c there isn't anyone to defer to. That doesn't really make him "better" though.

And I'm not dogging Cade. He and Tony are about the only two guys that I feel play hard "most" of the time.

But if this is the case then do guys ever improve from coaching?

I also think Cade Davis has improved as a basketball player while at OU.

 

[oSuJeff97]

But if this is the case then do guys ever improve from coaching?

I also think Cade Davis has improved as a basketball player while at OU.

My perspective:

I think you have to look at what is making a given player better.

If it's just that he's a bit stronger and makes better decisions with the basketball (limits turnovers, can finish better around the rim, etc.), then that is largely just from being older and more experienced.

If he also clearly develops his game to where he can do more things as he gets older, then that is coaching.

Just using the James Anderson example, he came in as a pure jump-shooter who would rarely ever drive to the basket... and when he did he would always go left. Furthermore, he had no interest whatsoever in playing defense. He also turned the ball over a lot.

He's obviously tremendously improved thanks to getting older and having more experience (he's stronger and smarter with the ball) and from coaching (he's greatly expanded his game -- drives from both sides, midrange game, etc., and is a much better defender).

 

[seniorsooner]

LOL. Typical. Coaches get no credit for making a player better, but all the blame if they don't. You'd think we were on Owen Field talking about Kevin Wilson.

 

[152219]

My perspective:

I think you have to look at what is making a given player better.

If it's just that he's a bit stronger and makes better decisions with the basketball (limits turnovers, can finish better around the rim, etc.), then that is largely just from being older and more experienced.

If he also clearly develops his game to where he can do more things as he gets older, then that is coaching.

Just using the James Anderson example, he came in as a pure jump-shooter who would rarely ever drive to the basket... and when he did he would always go left. Furthermore, he had no interest whatsoever in playing defense. He also turned the ball over a lot.

He's obviously tremendously improved thanks to getting older and having more experience (he's stronger and smarter with the ball) and from coaching (he's greatly expanded his game -- drives from both sides, midrange game, etc., and is a much better defender).

Do you think coaching expanded his game or the fact that he worked on those things in the off season?

At this level, I'm a big proponent that a lot (not all, mind you) of progress, especially offensively comes with the player putting the extra time in to work on their game...and it is the player that deserves much of the credit. Coach's definitely help guide the process and that definitely plays a role.

 

[SoonerNorm]

Did he really? Or did those players just get older, more experienced, and in Taylor's case, get more minutes?

Kind of like Cade this year. Aside from him driving more in the last 2-3 weeks, he really isn't doing anything "better" then he has his entire career at OU. Shooting percentages are very similiar, and in some cases, lower. He's just getting more minutes, and more shots, b/c there isn't anyone to defer to. That doesn't really make him "better" though.

And I'm not dogging Cade. He and Tony are about the only two guys that I feel play hard "most" of the time.

TU, I specifically recall a thread a couple of years ago when you and I were in agreement that Taylor was just an okay basketball player and that's all he would ever be. We were wrong. He did become a better player and I think we have to give the coaching staff some deserved credit for that. If we are going to blame Jeff for players who didn't improve, then it only seems right to give him credit for those who did. Taylor certainly did improve.

 

[oSuJeff97]

Do you think coaching expanded his game or the fact that he worked on those things in the off season?

At this level, I'm a big proponent that a lot (not all, mind you) of progress, especially offensively comes with the player putting the extra time in to work on their game...and it is the player that deserves much of the credit. Coach's definitely help guide the process and that definitely plays a role.

Of course it's the player that has to put in the work, but it's coach who (1) identifies what the holes are in the player's game (2) tells him what work he needs to do in order to get better.

Then, of course, it is on the player to do the work.

A lot of this is sort of chicken/egg scenario of course.

My point was that I think you can make some distinction between players getting better from coaching vs. just getting better from being older/more experienced.

Generally, every player will improve just from being older.

 

[152219]

Of course it's the player that has to put in the work, but it's coach who (1) identifies what the holes are in the player's game (2) tells him what work he needs to do in order to get better.

The, of course, it is on the player to do the work.

A lot of this is sort of chicken/egg scenario of course.

My point was that I think you can make some distinction between players getting better from coaching vs. just getting better from being older/more experienced.

Generally, every player will improve just from being older.

Okay....it appears we are of the same opinion.

 

[SoonerfanTU]

TU, I specifically recall a thread a couple of years ago when you and I were in agreement that Taylor was just an okay basketball player and that's all he would ever be. We were wrong. He did become a better player and I think we have to give the coaching staff some deserved credit for that. If we are going to blame Jeff for players who didn't improve, then it only seems right to give him credit for those who did. Taylor certainly did improve.

I don't see it that way. He benefited from having the perfect post presence for his game playing next to him, and from extended minutes. You are wanting to trust your eyes on this, while I'm looking at the numbers. About the only thing that went up, percentage-wise, was his shooting percentage. Most of that was b/c he got TONS of easy hoops b/c of Blake. Same with Patillo that season.

I'll give Capel credit for two things with Taylor. First, looking at the 3 point %, Capel probably helped him improve a bit as a shooter. Secondly, he convinced Taylor to bust his butt on the offensive glass, and in general, just to stay around the hoop, b/c with Blake playing next to him, there would be a ton of easy bunnies. And Taylor did that.

Don't forget, there were alot of folks that thought Taylor would get meaningful minutes as a "3" that year. I said that was crazy talk, and sure enough, he didn't. I don't think Taylor really exceeded anybody's expectations for his senior year, other than he got more of an opportunity. I saw flashes as a true frosh. The kid pretty much won the OSU game in Stillwater his frosh year alone.

To me, Taylor was alot like Cade. Good player. Probably better coming off the bench, b/c in doing so, they can use a bit more of their skill set. As starters, on good teams, both need to be surrounded by talent, and need to become role players. Taylor was able to do that. Cade hasn't. Cade's been forced to be more than he should be asked to be, IMO.

Now, I will also say that Capel got a bit more out of LL than I thought could be done, that quickly. That was somewhat impressive. But even that was born out of necessity.

 

[SoonerfanTU]

But if this is the case then do guys ever improve from coaching?

Sure, I just think it is really hard to measure.

And I think it is mostly guys that are project guys. Guys like LL. I think Capel will help a guy like TMG to be a better "run the offense" point guard, but I'm not sure he'll help him much with scoring. The things TMG does now, are likely the same things he did in HS, and will be doing 2-3 years from now.

I think alot of folks underestimate what two years of experience, and an extra 10 minutes a game will do for a kid.

 

[Mr.B!!!]

Okay, so now there are players who's stock has improved under Capel...and as far as Taylor benefitting from Blake, not sure the Suns drafted him counting on that...did they?

 

[soonerczech]

The sad thing about TMG is that I have seen him make some amazing passes to either Gallon or Wright and neither one can finish. Wright just has the ball go off his hands and Gallon, for a guy 6'10, can't play above the rim at all. He's got great footwork but a horrendous vertical. Its amazing how many 2's and 3's get position on him for the board or just straight up out-jump him for the board. If you are 6'9 - 6'10 and can't block shots, then you have some massive problems.

 

[SoonerfanTU]

Okay, so now there are players who's stock has improved under Capel...and as far as Taylor benefitting from Blake, not sure the Suns drafted him counting on that...did they?

I don't think they drafted him expecting him to ever contribute meaningfully in games. He's a good kid, a hard worker, and he has a good body for what they do. He provides a good body to practice against, and could get some run at the end of the bench in an emergency. But most importantly, he is someone that will stay out of trouble, practice hard, and he is cheap. When his "salary" goes up, I doubt he'll have a job. Not a knock, just what I believe is the truth.

 

[Mr.B!!!]

I don't think they drafted him expecting him to ever contribute meaningfully in games. He's a good kid, a hard worker, and he has a good body for what they do. He provides a good body to practice against, and could get some run at the end of the bench in an emergency. But most importantly, he is someone that will stay out of trouble, practice hard, and he is cheap. When his "salary" goes up, I doubt he'll have a job. Not a knock, just what I believe is the truth.

As far as the reason behind their pick; is that what you really and truly believe?

 

[SoonerfanTU]

As far as the reason behind their pick; is that what you really and truly believe?

Absolutely. I don't think Taylor is anywhere near good enough to play meaningful minutes in that league. Not big enough to play the 4, not skilled/quick enough to play the 3. As a 3 on offense, he can't shoot from long, and I don't think he has the ball handling skills to drive on most 3's. Offensively, at the 4, is probably where he makes the most sense.

BTW.....I actually had someone that follows the Suns alot more closely then I do that that is the main reason Taylor is on the team, and that once he costs more than the league min, he's probably gone.