I remember people clinging to John Blake

[MsProudSooner]

I don't disagree. But I also think not playing Carter half the season hurt a little.

When Carter started being more productive, he got more time. Players have to make the most of whatever time they get on the court.

 

[Section31]

If that was his only problem I agree. But lets just look at his recruits that we basically lost entire classes since then. We've gone through that list over and over and over again. It's really, really long. And we talk about it once or twice or ten times a season when we lose players.

I understand that. But are you saying losing an entire recruiting class has NO residual affects on a program??? In fact, it could be argued that last year would have been the year it had its biggest affect.

With that in mind, JC didn't "plan" for the loss of that class and for that, he is surely to blame. I don't believe ANYONE on this board wants this program to fail, but several want JC to fail (for some reason)...

 

[Section31]

When Carter started being more productive, he got more time. Players have to make the most of whatever time they get on the court.

I.e. Carl Blair.

 

[Section31]

I don't think anybody glosses over it, but don't come on here and say he didn't have talent on that team. He had enough talent to do better than 6-10 in conference and make postseason play.

He probably had enough talent on that team to possibly win a couple of more games. So, if he goes 8-8 then he did a great job??????

 

[campbest]

In my mind, Capel gets a pass for the first year. Losing an incoming freshmen class, injuries to Neal and AJ in addition to Carter not turning it on until late (even though we lost a lot of those games). There is just a lot of stuff that happened prior and during the season JC couldn't control. Win a couple more games and yeah, we might sneak into the NIT.

With that said, his recruiting after the inaugural year has been atrocious. The turnover and attrition pretty much killed any possible succes for last year and the current season. When you go out and sign players like Orlando Allen and Kyle Cannon to fill a void left my BG and TG, chances are you're going to struggle.

 

[Big Old Booger]

He probably had enough talent on that team to possibly win a couple of more games. So, if he goes 8-8 then he did a great job??????

Not a great job, but certainly not as poor as it was.

Maybe I'm too spoiled by Sampson taking chicken shi* and making chicken salad in 94 and 2004. The 2004 team had 3 true frosh starting, no Bookout down the stretch, Gilbert was injured (if I remember correctly; seems like he wore a cast on his hand every game; maybe that was a few years before), and Alexander was playing Center. Yet, we still made the NIT won a game and were ultra competitive in some losses down the stretch. Capel had more talent in 2007 than KS had in 2004.

To BigTime's point...I had forgotten about Neal's injury. That certainly affected that team.

 

[Section31]

Not a great job, but certainly not as poor as it was.

Maybe I'm too spoiled by Sampson taking chicken shi* and making chicken salad in 94 and 2004. The 2004 team had 3 true frosh starting, no Bookout down the stretch, Gilbert was injured (if I remember correctly; seems like he wore a cast on his hand every game; maybe that was a few years before), and Alexander was playing Center. Yet, we still made the NIT won a game and were ultra competitive in some losses down the stretch. Capel had more talent in 2007 than KS had in 2004.

To BigTime's point...I had forgotten about Neal's injury. That certainly affected that team.

I won't disagree with what you said, but every year is different. Maybe that 2004 team didn't have the type of schedule (ie. played tougher teams at home, etc), maybe an injury cost them a couple of wins. I dunno, because I've not researched it. I'm just not sure I care whether we lost in the 2nd round of the NIT as opposed to just missing the NIT. I can see where many do and have no problem with that approach. I guess what I'm saying is the 2004 team wasn't as "bad" as the 2007 team and I'm not sure that's saying much.

ON EDIT: I think after comparing those two schedules, it confirms a little of what I was saying. Both teams were average to below average. The 2007 team had a better win - ranking wise over #17 OSU (the 04 team beat #25 MSU). They both went thru extended losing streaks. Both teams appeared to compete with not much talent. I DO believe the 04 team had more experience than the 07 team, but it'd be splitting hairs.

 

[WaymanFan]

Some of you are just so blind with your hatred toward Coach Capel, you lose all objectivity. I can't believe we're still discussing Capel's first year as if it was some kind of disaster. The 2006 team won exactly 20 games the previous season, then proceeded to lose its 3 (far and away) best players in Bookout, Gray and Everett. They were replaced with two raw freshman...and they were supposed to win 20 games again? Is that being even remotely realistic? I'm sure a healthy Mike Neal would have gotten them an extra victory or two. That would have put the win total at 17 or 18...about as good as any remotely objective person would expect.

 

[Section31]

Some of you are just so blind with your hatred toward Coach Capel, you lose all objectivity. I can't believe we're still discussing Capel's first year as if it was some kind of disaster. The 2006 team won exactly 20 games the previous season, then proceeded to lose its 3 (far and away) best players in Bookout, Gray and Everett. They were replaced with two raw freshman...and they were supposed to win 20 games again? Is that being even remotely realistic? I'm sure a healthy Mike Neal would have gotten them an extra victory or two. That would have put the win total at 17 or 18...about as good as any remotely objective person would expect.

I agree with you to a point. The 04 team had a TON of new faces too tho...

 

[SilliSooner]

It's a little tough to recruit if when you come in and your team is on probation. One thing in particular, you have to be very wary about the amount of calls and texts you can make.

Capel came in behind the eight ball and did the best with what he had. He developed Longar Longar into twice the player he would have been under Sampson. Taylor Griffin saw this and saw enough in Capel, and he had two years under Sampson so it was enough to draw comparisons, and was convinced Jeff had the coaching talent to benefit Blake as well.

To me, Keith Clark (Sampson recruit) was the stinger in Jeff's first two years. He was a marginal student at best but had to be rewarded for keeping his commitment (along with Crocker) but then he gets injured 11 games into his freshman year and follows that by flunking out second semester of his soph year. Had Clark stayed healthy or hit his books, both years would've been different.

Capel can coach. He proved that at VCI. He proved that with the USA Pan American team. He proved that by taking a rag tag bunch to the wire against # 3 Kansas his first year. Comparisons to either Blake or Gibbs is weak.

At least we haven't hung Capel in effigy like the guy who started off his career with these seasonal records:

8-9
15-6
12-12
15-9
16-11

The guy was hung in effigy... twice.
His AD had a little patience and in his sixth year Dean Smith made the Final Four and won over 75% from then on.

 

[scrybe]

Great, great post, SilliSooner. :clap

 

[Big Old Booger]

I won't disagree with what you said, but every year is different. Maybe that 2004 team didn't have the type of schedule (ie. played tougher teams at home, etc), maybe an injury cost them a couple of wins. I dunno, because I've not researched it. I'm just not sure I care whether we lost in the 2nd round of the NIT as opposed to just missing the NIT. I can see where many do and have no problem with that approach. I guess what I'm saying is the 2004 team wasn't as "bad" as the 2007 team and I'm not sure that's saying much.

ON EDIT: I think after comparing those two schedules, it confirms a little of what I was saying. Both teams were average to below average. The 2007 team had a better win - ranking wise over #17 OSU (the 04 team beat #25 MSU). They both went thru extended losing streaks. Both teams appeared to compete with not much talent. I DO believe the 04 team had more experience than the 07 team, but it'd be splitting hairs.

According to SoonerStats.com, Michigan State was ranked #5 when we beat them in Auburn Hills. So, that's a virtual road game. Then, we turned around and beat #16 Purdue at home. We also beat #18 Texas Tech at home and lost 2 very close games to #11 ranked Texas, one of which was in the Big 12 tourney when we ran out of gas.

The only win in 2007 over a ranked club was the one you referenced.

 

[okcsooner83]

Capel is very similar to Quin Snyder, not John Blake.

 

[MsProudSooner]

Capel is very similar to Quin Snyder, not John Blake.

Rumors of drug use and affairs w/ the wife of a university official???? The only thing Capel & Quin have in common is their alma mater.

 

[Big Old Booger]

Rumors of drug use and affairs w/ the wife of a university official???? The only thing Capel & Quin have in common is their alma mater.

They both coached a big 12 team to the elite 8 and then both had their programs fall on hard times after that. Both had run-ins with the NCAA, although Quin was tabbed in their problems whereas Capel so far has not been.

Capel never coached for/with Krzyzewski though, so that isn't a comparison.

 

[MsProudSooner]

There are probably lots of teams/coaches who went to the elite 8 and then fell on hard times for various different reasons.; I just think Quin Snyder would be on a lower rung of the ladder than most, if not all of those coaches.

I understand people being frustrated, but comparing Capel to Blake or Snyder is really a reach. That isn't intended as praise for Capel as much as it is disdain for the insinuation that people who want to praise the team for their effort in the last 2 games are like John Blake supporters. That's an insult that no one on this board deserves.

 

[scrybe]

There are probably lots of teams/coaches who went to the elite 8 and then fell on hard times for various different reasons.; I just think Quin Snyder would be on a lower rung of the ladder than most, if not all of those coaches.

I understand people being frustrated, but comparing Capel to Blake or Snyder is really a reach. That isn't intended as praise for Capel as much as it is disdain for the insinuation that people who want to praise the team for their effort in the last 2 games are like John Blake supporters. That's an insult that no one on this board deserves.

Great post, MSProud.

 

[stoops4pres]

Some of you are just so blind with your hatred toward Coach Capel, you lose all objectivity. I can't believe we're still discussing Capel's first year as if it was some kind of disaster. The 2006 team won exactly 20 games the previous season, then proceeded to lose its 3 (far and away) best players in Bookout, Gray and Everett. They were replaced with two raw freshman...and they were supposed to win 20 games again? Is that being even remotely realistic? I'm sure a healthy Mike Neal would have gotten them an extra victory or two. That would have put the win total at 17 or 18...about as good as any remotely objective person would expect.

+1

 

[Big Old Booger]

There are probably lots of teams/coaches who went to the elite 8 and then fell on hard times for various different reasons.; I just think Quin Snyder would be on a lower rung of the ladder than most, if not all of those coaches.

I understand people being frustrated, but comparing Capel to Blake or Snyder is really a reach. That isn't intended as praise for Capel as much as it is disdain for the insinuation that people who want to praise the team for their effort in the last 2 games are like John Blake supporters. That's an insult that no one on this board deserves.

I don't disagree with you, however, the difference in Capel and Snyder and some other coach who advanced to the Elite 8 is both did it with programs that were very good over the previous 25-30 years. I would argue OU was a top 10 program from 1984 - 2003 and probably top 20 from 1978 - 2008. Mizzou was probably a top 10 from 1976 (or sooner) - 1995 and then a top 30 program from 1975 - 2002. This separates Capel and Snyder from say Steve Alford who took SW Mo State to the Elite 8 in 2000 and then did nothing after that at Iowa, or the George Mason coach who took them to the Final 4 one year and not even the NIT the next.

 

[jerry]

There are probably lots of teams/coaches who went to the elite 8 and then fell on hard times for various different reasons.; I just think Quin Snyder would be on a lower rung of the ladder than most, if not all of those coaches.

I understand people being frustrated, but comparing Capel to Blake or Snyder is really a reach. That isn't intended as praise for Capel as much as it is disdain for the insinuation that people who want to praise the team for their effort in the last 2 games are like John Blake supporters. That's an insult that no one on this board deserves.

There is a comparison. Blake just couldn't coach, Snyder cheated and our Jeff has no ablility to make personnel decisions. He loses top recruits every year and most are playing elsewhere.

So even though the weakness' are different all had significant issues thus the other 2 are out of it. Jeff Capel is not a Big 12 program head coach.