Ku and major violations

[Eielson]

I remain cautiously optimistic. I haven't forgotten that the combination of Sampson's phone calls (which today would have been mostly fine) and the $3,000 loan Gallon took (and Taliaferro didn't report) got OU 3 years of pretty onerous probation.

What will a systematic buying of recruits/paying players that the coaches/assistant coaches not only knew about, but encouraged, warrant? If the NCAA wants to be anything other than a complete joke, it should mean that if KU fields a basketball team at all, it will be manned primarily by walk ons for about 4 or 5 years.

I completely agree with your take on Sampson's phone calls, but not so much on The Brow's dealings. We were very fortunate to get off as easy as we did on that. Taliaferro looked guilty as hell. The fact that we bought players is disappointing, but the fact that we bought a team with a losing record makes it one of the darkest seasons in our history.

I used to take a pretty strong stance against hiring coaches with a unibrow regardless of any other details, but Anthony Davis has done a lot to soften my stance.

 

[AdaSooner]

I’m not cautiously optimistic anymore. I firmly believe Bill Self and KU are in deep doodoo. This is not just “word around Lawrence” bar room talk now. The national media is all over this story. It’s full steam ahead and to heck with Mr. Perfect Hall of Fame coach!

I wouldn’t want to be in Bill Self’s shoes, nor would I want to be a Jayhawk fan. Oh, they may say they’re not worried, but I’m not buying!

One more thing. Even if Self manages to use the delay tactics he’s famous for, I doubt that any high profile recruit in his right mind will want to be part of the mess that almost surely lies ahead for Self at some point.



.

 

[WTSooner]

I completely agree with your take on Sampson's phone calls, but not so much on The Brow's dealings. We were very fortunate to get off as easy as we did on that. Taliaferro looked guilty as hell. The fact that we bought players is disappointing, but the fact that we bought a team with a losing record makes it one of the darkest seasons in our history.

I used to take a pretty strong stance against hiring coaches with a unibrow regardless of any other details, but Anthony Davis has done a lot to soften my stance.

You consider that "buying players?"

 

[Eielson]

You consider that "buying players?"

Wiring a guy $3000 and pretending you have no knowledge of it?

Hell yeah.

 

[BoulderSooner]

Wiring a guy $3000 and pretending you have no knowledge of it?

Hell yeah.

he didnt' he arranged a loan from a 3rd party to gallons family to pay the remaining tuituion at his high school so he could play for and enroll at OU

that was repaid ..


that is not "buying" players

 

[Eielson]

he didnt' he arranged a loan from a 3rd party to gallons family to pay the remaining tuituion at his high school so he could play for and enroll at OU

that was repaid ..


that is not "buying" players

You actually believe that? There's no way you would if this was KU or UT.

 

[CoachTalk]

You actually believe that? There's no way you would if this was KU or UT.

No way $3k is buying players. It was HS tuition due. Still not cool but hardly buying players.

 

[Max Power]

No way $3k is buying players. It was HS tuition due. Still not cool but hardly buying players.

Exactly 5 star centers going rate is probably at least 10 times that amount

 

[Eielson]

No way $3k is buying players. It was HS tuition due. Still not cool but hardly buying players.

3K is what he got caught red-handed with. That's far from the only sketchy thing he was involved in. He was doing shady stuff at Arkansas as well.

 

[NickZepp]

If this is as bad as it sounds how can KU keep Self around at this point? I know he had a historic run at it but this sounds like something you would probably have to fire any coach not with a K in front of their name and I'm not sure he would be safe either.

 

[Zimwillett]

I completely agree with your take on Sampson's phone calls, but not so much on The Brow's dealings. We were very fortunate to get off as easy as we did on that. Taliaferro looked guilty as hell. The fact that we bought players is disappointing, but the fact that we bought a team with a losing record makes it one of the darkest seasons in our history.

I used to take a pretty strong stance against hiring coaches with a unibrow regardless of any other details, but Anthony Davis has done a lot to soften my stance.

So a few things:

1. I agree that OU needed to be punished for the Gallon deal. Never said otherwise. But you are burying your head in the sand if you believe the $3,000 from a Florida financial advisor is anything close to the systematic and high level dirt KU has been doing.

2. A big part of the reason OU "got off easy" was that the school self-reported, cooperated in the investigation, and proposed its own penalties (which the NCAA increased by one year). Again, it is critical to note the difference between OU's situation, and KU's. The NCAA finds out about the KU scandal because of an FBI criminal investigation and trial.

3. I think the "phone calls" thing is relevant. Again, that's something OU compliance self-reported. The NCAA then used that to enhance OU's penalties as a repeat violator when they self-reported on the Gallon issue. How many of Self's violations over the years went unreported? If this isn't something the NCAA will consider, it's a terrible way to incentivize compliance. Universities who self report on something as petty as phone calls get hammered. Universities who let a systematic buying of recruits outsourced to the school's apparel licencee go unreported for years...no biggie.

The more I read, the more I think that KU is going to get hammered, but the NCAA is notoriously incompetent, so we'll see.

 

[Eielson]

So a few things:

1. I agree that OU needed to be punished for the Gallon deal. Never said otherwise. But you are burying your head in the sand if you believe the $3,000 from a Florida financial advisor is anything close to the systematic and high level dirt KU has been doing.

2. A big part of the reason OU "got off easy" was that the school self-reported, cooperated in the investigation, and proposed its own penalties (which the NCAA increased by one year). Again, it is critical to note the difference between OU's situation, and KU's. The NCAA finds out about the KU scandal because of an FBI criminal investigation and trial.

3. I think the "phone calls" thing is relevant. Again, that's something OU compliance self-reported. The NCAA then used that to enhance OU's penalties as a repeat violator when they self-reported on the Gallon issue. How many of Self's violations over the years went unreported? If this isn't something the NCAA will consider, it's a terrible way to incentivize compliance. Universities who self report on something as petty as phone calls get hammered. Universities who let a systematic buying of recruits outsourced to the school's apparel licencee go unreported for years...no biggie.

The more I read, the more I think that KU is going to get hammered, but the NCAA is notoriously incompetent, so we'll see.

I full-heartedly agree that what KU is doing is much worse, and I never meant to imply otherwise.

Did we self-report the phone calls? I thought we got turned in by Sutton, but that's just off the top of my head.

 

[WaymanFan]

2. A big part of the reason OU "got off easy" was that the school self-reported, cooperated in the investigation, and proposed its own penalties (which the NCAA increased by one year). Again, it is critical to note the difference between OU's situation, and KU's. The NCAA finds out about the KU scandal because of an FBI criminal investigation and trial.

Another big part of OU getting let off so easily was because of Joe C's persistence in hiring Lon Kruger. He badly needed to show the NCAA that the two rounds of issues over 5 years was coming to an abrupt halt by the hiring of a guy who squeaks when he moves.

Yes, the NCAA is hypocritical, unfair, a joke, etc, etc, but I don't think KU is getting out of this without getting knocked down pretty hard.

 

[Zimwillett]

I full-heartedly agree that what KU is doing is much worse, and I never meant to imply otherwise.

Did we self-report the phone calls? I thought we got turned in by Sutton, but that's just off the top of my head.

You could be right about the calls. My recollection was OU self-reported, but after (very) brief search, I didn't find anything. It's been a while so you could be right.

I do know that OU self-reported the Gallon situation. To me, that's where the critical difference between OU and KU lies. The NCAA recognizes that really the only way it can effectively enforce its rules is to encourage internal monitoring, reporting, and cooperation by the universities. If that is going to be your system, then if/when you don't receive proper monitoring, reporting, and/or cooperation, the hammer needs to drop. Hard.

 

[skyvue]

I had understood that the $3K was indeed a loan and was paid back -- is that the case? I'm not saying that makes it ok, but it's certainly different than outright paying players.

 

[BoulderSooner]

I had understood that the $3K was indeed a loan and was paid back -- is that the case? I'm not saying that makes it ok, but it's certainly different than outright paying players.

this is my understanding

 

[AdaSooner]

I had understood that the $3K was indeed a loan and was paid back -- is that the case? I'm not saying that makes it ok, but it's certainly different than outright paying players.

That’s the way I remember it too. The loan had to be paid back before Gallon was allowed to attend school.

There is no doubt that Oronde Taliaferro made a mistake. But what he did was not even close to the pay for play schemes described in this scandal, and it still cost him his job.

 

[Eielson]

I had understood that the $3K was indeed a loan and was paid back -- is that the case? I'm not saying that makes it ok, but it's certainly different than outright paying players.

Well, first the story was that Taliaferro had no idea who this guy was. But the 41 calls between them begged to differ. So the story changed to it being a loan so that he could pay his tuition. You think that transaction required 41 calls? I sure don't.

It's kinda strange that so many are jumping to Taliaferro's aid here. Everytime Capel was mentioned as a great recruiter at Duke, most the board hopped on the illegal recruiting-train. Yet somehow nobody can imagine that Taliaferro was buying players? The guy's entire reputation was based on his ability to recruit players. What do most great recruiters in college basketball have in common? It's certainly not a unibrow.

And I know the propagation of this strawman won't stop, but again -- I never said that what we did was worse than KU. KU's sins are far more egregious.

 

[skyvue]

Well, first the story was that Taliaferro had no idea who this guy was. But the 41 calls between them begged to differ. So the story changed to it being a loan so that he could pay his tuition. You think that transaction required 41 calls? I sure don't.

It's kinda strange that so many are jumping to Taliaferro's aid here. Everytime Capel was mentioned as a great recruiter at Duke, most the board hopped on the illegal recruiting-train. Yet somehow nobody can imagine that Taliaferro was buying players? The guy's entire reputation was based on his ability to recruit players. What do most great recruiters in college basketball have in common? It's certainly not a unibrow.

And I know the propagation of this strawman won't stop, but again -- I never said that what we did was worse than KU. KU's sins are far more egregious.

And your insistence that a) Gallon was "bought" and b) that people are jumping to "Taliaferro's aid" is just as much a strawman. The transaction was reported in the media (national and local) as a loan (and also, if my memory serves, that it was paid back). All anyone's said here is that that is different from outright buying players. Even 10 years ago, $3K would have hardly have been enough to "buy" a McDonald's AA.

 

[BoulderSooner]

And your insistence that a) Gallon was "bought" and b) that people are jumping to "Taliaferro's aid" is just as much a strawman. The transaction was reported in the media (national and local) as a loan (and also, if my memory serves, that it was paid back). All anyone's said here is that that is different from outright buying players. Even 10 years ago, $3K would have hardly have been enough to "buy" a McDonald's AA.

all of this