OU can get whatever juco player it wants.... true or false?

[thebigabd]

As I digest the daily assaults by folks like hoopsaustin regarding recruiting strategy, I started to assess who is actually wrong here, if anyone.

While not an old man, I am tied to the belief that for OU to be consistently good it must pluck legitimate junior college talent early in the process to guarantee you at least have a good team. This was the tactic of old, and one that Sampson (the guy I grew up watching OU with) succeeded at OU with for a long time.

Taj Gray, Terrell Everett, Nolan Johnson, Daryan Selvy, Quannas White, Mike Neal, Aaron McGhee, Corey Brewer, Ebi Ere, Eric Martin, etc.... These guys were always added to already good "high school" talent like Ryan Minor, Hollis Price, Eddie Najera, Kevin Bookout, JR Raymond, etc... That worked for a long time.

Sampson, right now, has 7 juco transfers on roster and had a damn good year. Their top 3 scorers and rebounders were juco transfers. Is he just that good of a coach? Or does he just know how to find the right guys?

So the question becomes... if Kruger or whoever coaches at OU tried to mimic the Sampson process, would it work? Let's assume there is less talent in juco basketball out there... if they prioritize these players can they get whatever they player they want? Does the OU brand carry enough weight in the Kansas, Texas, and Iowa junior colleges to "select" what players we want? Less recruiting, more selecting.

Some examples.....

If OU properly scouted and prioritized Shakur Juiston out of Hutchinson CC last year (3 hours from Norman), would it have been easy to land him? He averaged 15 and 10 in his first year at UNLV this year... Was Hannes Polla a higher priority? Was Lazenby? Did the staff whiff on Juiston? They didn't even offer him. Do they not want a guy like that specifically because he only has 2 years?

Once you get into the late signing period you are competing with a lot of programs for the limited juco guys that are available.

But if OU went full tilt at Lual Acuil (averaging 14 and 9 for Baylor), Shakur Juiston (averaging 15 and 10 at UNLV), etc in the early period... could they have gotten them? Both of these guys are just a few hours away in Kansas. Again, they didn't even offer Acuil. He was right up the road in Neosho.

Look at Rob Gray... total stud for Houston. He got offered by Houston, Memphis, Creighton, and Texas Tech... Are you telling me OU couldn't have had him? The OU staff probably didn't even know who he was. He was at a juco in the Fort Worth, Texas area. 4 hours away. Had a bunch of mid-major offers.

When you look at the kind of relationship Sampson had with the coaches, you believe that OU would have a legit chance at whatever player they wanted. Is that still true?

We know that Lazenby, Freeman, and Shepherd aren't good enough to get minutes at OU... Hannes Polla is fine because he has potential, but he wasn't ready to play immediately. Might take him 2 years to get ready...

Could OU have had, if it wanted, some of these other players I mentioned? That is the question.

Of course... if you take guys like this, it's hard to tell who won't be here. Maybe Doolittle, Muni, Lazenby, Freeman, Shepherd, Manek? Sure, maybe some of those other guys go elsewhere... You can't have them all. But is there any reason OU's starting lineup couldn't have been:

PG: Trae Young
SG: Rob Gray
SG: Christian James
PF: Shakur Juiston
C: Lual Acuil Jr

This whole theory basically revolves around the premise that OU can get pretty much whatever juco player it wants IF they specifically built a recruiting strategy around them and prioritized them? Is that true or not?

 

[CoachTalk]

not true at all. Trice is questionable... Illnois landing a player today, I feel personally helped OU but who knows.

 

[WichitaSooner]

Of course this isn't true. Look at some of the schools that the players you listed ended up at, or had offers from. Baylor, Tech, Creighton, Memphis . . . not every kid would pick OU over those schools. Kids have all kinds of reasons for picking schools, so to think we would be the top choice for virtually every good JUCO player is absurd.

Also -- I'm sure it would be fairly easy to make a list of recent JUCO kids who were total flops once they got to D-1. So while it is easy to go back in hindsight and say how good we could have been had we gotten all the best JUCO players over the past two or three years, it isn't quite that easy to project in advance. Plus, I'd challenge you to identify many top 15-20 programs who rely on JUCO players to any meaningful degree.

 

[thebigabd]

Wichita and Coachtalk... I get what you are saying, but remember, in my scenario above OU prioritized these guys and properly scouted them... Even guys like Trice but didn't talk to OU until here recently in desperation mode. Why isn't OU scouting the Kansas, Texas, and Iowa jucos to find the legit D1 guys?

Also -- I'm sure it would be fairly easy to make a list of recent JUCO kids who were total flops once they got to D-1. So while it is easy to go back in hindsight and say how good we could have been had we gotten all the best JUCO players over the past two or three years, it isn't quite that easy to project in advance. Plus, I'd challenge you to identify many top 15-20 programs who rely on JUCO players to any meaningful degree.

Sure, you can always find flops. I can find lots of high school flops too. I never maintained they are all good. Lots of them suck. We have seen some of our worst scholarship players recently be juco transfers. But those weren't properly scouted, evaluated, and prioritized players. They were warm bodies filled in desperation mode.

I'd challenge you to find 15-20 programs who won as many games as Sampson did with this "reliance" on junior college talent. Probably doesn't exist. Maybe that makes OU a little unique?

 

[jaymOU]

I think the question you are asking is not can OU get any JUCO they want, but should OU and LK change their recruiting strategy? To me, LK has taken on a lot of projects - some have projected, others not so much. Has McNeace been a success at OU? Would two years of Acuil be better than 4 of McNeace? Interesting question....

On the court, two years of Acuil might be better, but you have to keep getting those guys - so you have to change your strategy.

I think LK is more of a developer of talent and Kelvin is more an acquirer of talent. Kelvin did take shots on guys, but was quick to "over recruit" with a JUCO if needed. Seems LK is more "loyal" to his 4-year guys.

Both have had success at OU. Kelvin's seems more sustained with less drop-offs than LKs, but both have similar results in the tournament.

Hard call and a good question. I will ponder a little more on this.

Personally, I am a guy who wished OU recruited in Oklahoma more. I have mentioned this before, but not getting Shaq Morris, Shake Milton - even last year not offering Chaqois or Landrum. You could have a really solid team of just OK kids. Could have started Young, Milton, Manek, Doolittle, Morris - then sprinkle in a couple of JUCO kids and you have a roster right there. Probably pie in the sky, but still would be interesting to see what kind of team you could field with OK kids and a few JUCOs.

 

[AdaSooner]

The answer to your question is, No, if our coaching staff continues to see juco players as desperation targets to fill needs.

It’s obvious coaches at some of the other schools are identifying the top talent in the juco ranks early on and recruiting them as if they are just as important as the high school players on their list. Juco players know that too.

While it’s true there aren’t as many talented recruits in junior colleges now as there were when Kelvin and UNLV’s Jerry Tarkanian built a team around them every season, the players we see on other teams like those on your list are proof that they’re still available. One thing is certain, last minute shoppers usually get stuck with the leftovers, which is why I said OU’s recruiting philosophy will have to change if we’re to reap the rewards schools like Houston are enjoying right now.

I have always supported the idea of bringing in a juco player or two to mix with our high school players. They’re more mature physically and mentally. Makes me wonder if an older juco player could have served as a stop gap for some of the immature shenanigans we saw throughout the end of last season?

 

[thebigabd]

The answer to your question is, No, if our coaching staff continues to see juco players as desperation targets to fill needs.

But what if they didn't? What if it was in reverse?

I think the question you are asking is not can OU get any JUCO they want, but should OU and LK change their recruiting strategy? To me, LK has taken on a lot of projects - some have projected, others not so much. Has McNeace been a success at OU? Would two years of Acuil be better than 4 of McNeace? Interesting question....

On the court, two years of Acuil might be better, but you have to keep getting those guys - so you have to change your strategy.

I think LK is more of a developer of talent and Kelvin is more an acquirer of talent. Kelvin did take shots on guys, but was quick to "over recruit" with a JUCO if needed. Seems LK is more "loyal" to his 4-year guys.

Both have had success at OU. Kelvin's seems more sustained with less drop-offs than LKs, but both have similar results in the tournament.

Hard call and a good question. I will ponder a little more on this.

Personally, I am a guy who wished OU recruited in Oklahoma more. I have mentioned this before, but not getting Shaq Morris, Shake Milton - even last year not offering Chaqois or Landrum. You could have a really solid team of just OK kids. Could have started Young, Milton, Manek, Doolittle, Morris - then sprinkle in a couple of JUCO kids and you have a roster right there. Probably pie in the sky, but still would be interesting to see what kind of team you could field with OK kids and a few JUCOs.

Nice post... interested to hear your feedback after pondering. Your points are valid and interesting as well.

 

[CoachTalk]

I get what you’re saying now. I really do like sprinkling Juco’s for immediate impact every year. Not like desperation now. But I don’t think we should go full fledge juco only

 

[AdaSooner]

But what if they didn't? What if it was in reverse

The main focus of my response to your question centered around a reversal in the way juco recruits have been viewed by our staff. All too often we’re getting the leftovers because our coaches wait too long to evaluate and recruit at the juco level.

Nothing would please me more than to see them sign a Trice or a Bandoo, or both. Add Calixte to that list and call it a day.

 

[WichitaSooner]

One name I've seen on this board a lot is Shaq Morris (obviously not a JUCO guy, but mentioned in this thread). Would those of you who mention Shaq have wanted him to play over Spangler? Thomas? Because those are the guys who played the frontcourt minutes at OU for much of Shaq's college career. Remember -- he redshirted his first year at WSU, then was so out of shape and inconsistent his next two years that they actually left him home during a conference road trip. Yes, he developed into a very good player by his senior year, and was certainly solid as a junior. But I can almost promise you that had we signed him out of high school and had him on the bench for two or three years, people here would have viewed him as a waste of a scholarship. And though Shaq obviously ended up being much better than Lattin by the end of their careers, I don't think many people would have expected that when Lattin was starting as a sophomore on a Final Four team and Shaq was playing 15-20 minutes in the Missouri Valley.

Sorry for getting off topic, I just always notice when that name comes up because, being from Wichita, I am very familiar with his career. WSU fans love him now, but couldn't stand his effort and inconsistency for the majority of his career. Definitely a "grass isn't always greener" situation IMHO.

 

[usedtobe1]

Isn’t hindsight great?

OU can’t get whatever juco recruit they want. That’s a fact. Also, juco ball isn’t what it used to be when Sampson was at OU, but he seems to be making it work at Houston.

Now to address your question about those specific juco players. Remember OU only had 1 senior on the team for this year (Lattin), and 2 scholarships after Woodard and Cole graduated. They signed Manek and Polla in the November signing period. That left them with 1 scholarship for a PG in the late signing period. You mentioned 3 players: Rob Gray, Shakur Juiston, and Lual Acuil. Of course we have the benefit of hindsight now, but let’s look at it from the time things were happening. I’ll look at each of the 3.

Rob Gray:
OU had a 2nd team juco AA Darion Strong-Moore returning at PG. DSM would have one more year at OU and they were in the thick of getting a commitment from Trae Young. Assuming Gray wanted to be a PG, why would he consider going to OU? The Sooners got the verbal from Young early in the year, and DSM didn’t decide to transfer until after the season. Maybe Gray could have been a backup plan if they had lost out on Trae. Also, Jorden Shepherd was playing OK as a true freshman PG. Heck, the Sooners almost had a log jam at PG. It was probably a mutual disinterest by both parties.

Shakur Juiston:
OU had a true freshman tearing it up in Kristian Doolittle. He looked like a future star playing at the 3/4. They also signed Brady Manek early. They had Odomes playing well at the 3, and Dante Buford. It didn’t appear to be a big a position of need for OU. He wasn’t going to beat out the Doolittle we saw as a freshman..... when Juiston was a recruit. I’m not sure he could beat him out next year either..... I’m still hopeful for Doolittle in the future returning to form.

Lual Acuil:
OU had 2 returning centers in Lattin and McNeace, and a commitment from a 6’11” European center in Polla. OU didn’t need a 4th center on the roster. Why would Acuil even consider OU? Or vice versa.

After the verbal commitment by Trae, they had no available scholarships for this year. Buford and DSM decided to transfer after the season. Who was left uncommitted by then? They struck out on several grad transfers after the 2 transfers were announced. They finally gave 1 to Lazenby and saved 1 for this year.

Pardon me if my post doesn’t make much sense.... I’m typing it as I’ve just gotten 2 chemo infusions, and about to get a transfusion of 2 units of blood at MD Anderson. Cancer sucks, but this post gives me something to do. I still think my recollection is correct.

 

[WaymanFan]

Thanks to Billy Tubbs, Kelvin Sampson was able to build on the tradition Tubbs started in either getting the best JUCO players, or at least being in the mix for the very best. I remember when Larry Johnson (arguably the best JUCO player EVER) was deciding which 4-year school to go to. They interviewed his JUCO coach who said: "It's Oklahoma or UNLV. Everyone else is wasting their time." Billy was the master...Kelvin picked up and ran with that tradition...but it has fallen off since he left...would love to get that JUCO mojo back even though there aren't the quality or quantity of good players as when Tubbs and Sampson were coaching.

Lon has to remind these JUCOs that no school (except maybe the last one he coached at) has sent more JUCO plyers to the NBA than Oklahoma.

 

[vbdad]

There are still good juco players out there but it less than the old days. Our guys are going to try to get high school players first which may not always be the right decision.

They loved Milton and recruited him very hard. They just couldn't beat Larry Brown for his services.

Shaq Morris they worried Morris wouldn't be in good enough shape. They would have loved to had him the last two years. Obviously a ton of credit goes to him for going to WSU and getting after it. Sounds like it took a couple of years though.

 

[dsuits]

Keep at it Usedtobe1, you are a true Sooner keyboard warrior Get well soon.

 

[thebigabd]

Pardon me if my post doesn’t make much sense.... I’m typing it as I’ve just gotten 2 chemo infusions, and about to get a transfusion of 2 units of blood at MD Anderson. Cancer sucks, but this post gives me something to do. I still think my recollection is correct.

First, let me say that I am sorry you are in that situation. We took a family trip to MD Anderson this year for a family member. Get well, and we will do our best to keep the lively conversation going.

Shakur Juiston:
OU had a true freshman tearing it up in Kristian Doolittle. He looked like a future star playing at the 3/4. They also signed Brady Manek early. They had Odomes playing well at the 3, and Dante Buford. It didn’t appear to be a big a position of need for OU. He wasn’t going to beat out the Doolittle we saw as a freshman..... when Juiston was a recruit. I’m not sure he could beat him out next year either..... I’m still hopeful for Doolittle in the future returning to form.

Ok, but you have a REALLY good player 3 hours away from your campus and you don't even look at him? Doolittle had some great games as a freshman, but you have to remember that team won 12 games.

And why can't he beat out Doolittle? Shakur came in right off the bat into D1 averaging 15 and 10. It's pretty damn hard to average a double-double and this guy came in and did it. Our best rebounder averaged about 5.9 per game. Big difference there.

Your post regarding the timelines makes sense... but if you look at Muni, Buford, Freeman, Polla, and Lattin... Several of those guys are total projects. My entire point here is if you scout and prioritize guys like Juiston, they are already ready to come in and play.

Polla couldn't even get on the floor, neither can Freeman, and Muni is just now learning how to play basketball. I think Muni is well worth a spot, but if you recruited guys like Juiston or Acuil from the beginning you are bringing guys in who are ready to play right now instead of gambling on projects like Freeman, Buford, Muni, and Polla.

The argument you are making is "well we already had these guys, so its hard to recruit these more prepared guys because we are already locked into the other players"... My entire position here is that you should have gone after guys like Juiston and Acuil before you went after guys like Freeman, Polla, Muni, etc.

The coaching staff should know after proper evaluation what they are getting... did they honestly believe Muni or Lattin were better than Acuil? Did they honestly believe Freeman or Polla were better than Juiston? Or did they just value them more because they have more upside? Have more years to play?

 

[Matthew G]

You can't rely on JUCOs because a lot of the good ones are there because they can't qualify. Don't go KU football where you sign the top JUCO players only to have them not show up on campus or get kicked out before they even play.

Reality is, they are JUCO kids for a reason, whether it's not qualifying or having off court issues that no one wants to touch. There are tons of JUCOs who fail rather than the diamond's in the rough.

 

[Ghost of Gar Heard]

Isn’t hindsight great?

OU can’t get whatever juco recruit they want. That’s a fact. Also, juco ball isn’t what it used to be when Sampson was at OU, but he seems to be making it work at Houston.

Now to address your question about those specific juco players. Remember OU only had 1 senior on the team for this year (Lattin), and 2 scholarships after Woodard and Cole graduated. They signed Manek and Polla in the November signing period. That left them with 1 scholarship for a PG in the late signing period. You mentioned 3 players: Rob Gray, Shakur Juiston, and Lual Acuil. Of course we have the benefit of hindsight now, but let’s look at it from the time things were happening. I’ll look at each of the 3.

Rob Gray:
OU had a 2nd team juco AA Darion Strong-Moore returning at PG. DSM would have one more year at OU and they were in the thick of getting a commitment from Trae Young. Assuming Gray wanted to be a PG, why would he consider going to OU? The Sooners got the verbal from Young early in the year, and DSM didn’t decide to transfer until after the season. Maybe Gray could have been a backup plan if they had lost out on Trae. Also, Jorden Shepherd was playing OK as a true freshman PG. Heck, the Sooners almost had a log jam at PG. It was probably a mutual disinterest by both parties.

Shakur Juiston:
OU had a true freshman tearing it up in Kristian Doolittle. He looked like a future star playing at the 3/4. They also signed Brady Manek early. They had Odomes playing well at the 3, and Dante Buford. It didn’t appear to be a big a position of need for OU. He wasn’t going to beat out the Doolittle we saw as a freshman..... when Juiston was a recruit. I’m not sure he could beat him out next year either..... I’m still hopeful for Doolittle in the future returning to form.

Lual Acuil:
OU had 2 returning centers in Lattin and McNeace, and a commitment from a 6’11” European center in Polla. OU didn’t need a 4th center on the roster. Why would Acuil even consider OU? Or vice versa.

After the verbal commitment by Trae, they had no available scholarships for this year. Buford and DSM decided to transfer after the season. Who was left uncommitted by then? They struck out on several grad transfers after the 2 transfers were announced. They finally gave 1 to Lazenby and saved 1 for this year.

Pardon me if my post doesn’t make much sense.... I’m typing it as I’ve just gotten 2 chemo infusions, and about to get a transfusion of 2 units of blood at MD Anderson. Cancer sucks, but this post gives me something to do. I still think my recollection is correct.

Keep fighting the good fight, friend. We're all pulling for you.

 

[sheepdogs1]

Keep at it Usedtobe1, you are a true Sooner keyboard warrior Get well soon.

And I'll second the motion in a world populated by commotion.

 

[usedtobe1]

Ok, but you have a REALLY good player 3 hours away from your campus and you don't even look at him? Doolittle had some great games as a freshman, but you have to remember that team won 12 games.

And why can't he beat out Doolittle? Shakur came in right off the bat into D1 averaging 15 and 10. It's pretty damn hard to average a double-double and this guy came in and did it. Our best rebounder averaged about 5.9 per game. Big difference there.

Your post regarding the timelines makes sense... but if you look at Muni, Buford, Freeman, Polla, and Lattin... Several of those guys are total projects. My entire point here is if you scout and prioritize guys like Juiston, they are already ready to come in and play.

Polla couldn't even get on the floor, neither can Freeman, and Muni is just now learning how to play basketball. I think Muni is well worth a spot, but if you recruited guys like Juiston or Acuil from the beginning you are bringing guys in who are ready to play right now instead of gambling on projects like Freeman, Buford, Muni, and Polla.

The argument you are making is "well we already had these guys, so its hard to recruit these more prepared guys because we are already locked into the other players"... My entire position here is that you should have gone after guys like Juiston and Acuil before you went after guys like Freeman, Polla, Muni, etc.

The coaching staff should know after proper evaluation what they are getting... did they honestly believe Muni or Lattin were better than Acuil? Did they honestly believe Freeman or Polla were better than Juiston? Or did they just value them more because they have more upside? Have more years to play?

My point was by the time the juco season started in 2016, OU had already signed Manek and Polla, and had just 1 scholarship left to give. They needed a PG and Trae was their top target. I’m sure the OU staff could have guessd someone might transfer, but should they have allocated time to scouting and recruiting PG’s or other positions? As the season progressed, Doolittle played like a future star. How much time should OU have allocated to recruiting a very good juco player that played Doolittle’s position? .... and going against a lot of schools recruiting him as their top priority? Not knowing who might transfer, I probably would have prioritized a wing .... and placed a higher priority on HS prospects than jucos. I might even have said start recruiting 2019 recruits instead of 2018 jucos. You can’t boil the ocean and recruit everybody.

OU had no idea Doolittle would get kicked out of school or that Polla couldn’t get on the floor. Yet that was the time to be recruiting Juiston with a full court press if they had a chance of signing him. They chose to focus on Trae and it paid off.

Juiston was a McDonalds AA and the juco player of the year. Iowa State was his leader and recruited him hard from day 1. He flipped at the last minute to UNLV and there’s some smoke about funny stuff going on with his recruitment. Here’s an article on his recruitment. https://www.desmoinesregister.com/story/sports/college/iowa-state/randy-peterson/2017/04/27/shakur-juiston-recruitment-iowa-state-unlv-steve-prohm/307075001/

I’m enjoying this discussion.

 

[dsuits]

Hey @thebigabd, I've noticed you like to kick the hornets nest around here.
I appreciate your daily thoughts and will ride shotgun with you but I'll be throwing grasshoppers onto the spiderwebs instead.


I would like to know the OU coaches positions before I speculate on their rational but speculation is message board poker so you can call my bluff if you must. I don't put to much stock in my Uno wildcard counting abilities but I'll lay my cards on the table and royally bust a reverse flush.

I'm not sure if Kur Kuath was an early enough commit to qualify in this scenario but it did seem Krug and Company identified him and went "all in" to get him. I know the Kur signing left some scratching their heads and I understand the skepticism to a degree myself but he's a Sooner so let's ride. Yelling at the computer screen and wishing OU locked up K. Moore or another prospect was easy to justify but I went back to my seasoned GM Zen master couch training. Little background, currently I'm undefeated in my own brain fantasy league so I know a little about grandiose projection. Oddly, some things I yell to my Gerbil computer, phone and TV manifest like Mana in the form of ad's and product placement. The calculating disposable income algorithm was way off target but I must be doing something right if they care that much to listen:facepalm

At the time of Kur committing and looking over the roster my initial thoughts were potential redshirt candidate. Add a year and some mass to develop a raw but potentially hyper athletic deflector to help fill that void of McNeace. Opposing team lane contributors, meet a 7'5" tentacle projectile inhibitor, spark plug defibrillator initiator.

Anyone know if Kur is redshirt eligible? He started out at some WyomingCC and transferred to Salt LakeCC, so I'm not sure if he had to set out or redshirted already. Trying to read Lon's thoughts, I wonder if this was the initial plan for Kur. I know people talk about Kur at the three and I could see him there on defense like Manek or Dolittle does sometimes but not sure what role offensively he's going to play. He shot 3/24 from 3point so I'm not sure if hell be called on to create much from deep or if he has the handles to be effective on the wing. I know he's light but I just see him getting matched up against taller players while he's here. I could be off the mark but the past track record of a sure fire wing3 that gets here and abruptly plays against post players fits the trend lately.

So this is the elaborate made up painting in the brain forecast numbers if he does end up playing post minutes.

Next year 18-19
C-McNeace-RS Sr.
C-Polla-Soph
F-Dollitle-JR
F-Freeman-RS JR
F-Manek-Soph
Kuath-JR (possibly Redshirt?)

19-20
C-Polla-Jr? Declares early for NBA after monster Cole Aldrich like year but elects to stays after bitting off a second player's ear at the Final Four. Later "coined" as competitively wanting something so bad you can hear the taste is added to analytic scale.
F-Dolittle-SR
F-Freeman-RS SR
F-Manek-JR
Kuath-(RS) JR

20-21
Polla-SR
Manek-SR
Kuath-RS SR.

Obviously, Players will be added in those years but projection wise it makes sense if Kuath could afford a Redshirt year when we have some depth ahead of him. I understand some people are in the never redshirt juco camp but maybe Lon see's Kur more as a transfer that you take knowing you have to wait a year but works out for both parties this way. I guess I'm just trying to see what Lon has visioned compared to my uninformed opinion. Any thoughts?