Shaka Smart at UT

Zimwillett said:
The point is even the teams at the top of the conference today are consistently losing more games than they were then.
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And you attribute that to one thing, and I attribute it to another. You think the bottom teams have all increased greatly, and there are no easy wins.

I think the teams at the top, other than KU (for the most part) have fallen off. And guess what, that includes OU. OU had some dangerous teams under Kelvin. OSU had a few really good teams under Sutton. UT had some really good teams at that time. There aren't any teams on that level, CONSISTENTLY, in the last 7-8 years. It's been KU and what, OU once? No OSU. No UT.

I think it was you that listed that more teams make the NCAA Tourney now. Cool. But in the Kelvin era, more teams were making NOISE in the tourney. I listed that out last night with the Elite 8 and FF appearances for teams like OSU and UT.

So yes, I agree that the bottom of the conference is probably a little better. But I also think the top is not nearly as good either. To some degree, there is a wash there in the overall affect on a team like OU.
 
WTSooner said:
LMAO

Thank you for proving my point. Check out the bolded part. That is EXACTLY what I've been saying. Maybe the league is tougher. Cool. But it really shouldn't have an affect on the W/L record for OU. You just acknowledged that even though you believe the Big 12 to be tougher, you aren't sure if it would affect their record at all. That's what I've been saying.

Some of you are still missing the point of this entire conversation. Is the league being tougher the reason for so many of Lon's struggles? The answer can be that the league is tougher, but that it also is not the reason, at all, for Lon's struggles. Same as it was not the reason for Capel's struggles. It's funny, b/c as the Big 12 was getting tougher later in Kelvin's tenure, his results were getting better too.
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In Sampson's last year, the Big 12 was the 7th ranked conference. SEVENTH!!! Below the Missouri Valley. LMAO
 
WTSooner said:
And you attribute that to one thing, and I attribute it to another. You think the bottom teams have all increased greatly, and there are no easy wins.

I think the teams at the top, other than KU (for the most part) have fallen off. And guess what, that includes OU. OU had some dangerous teams under Kelvin. OSU had a few really good teams under Sutton. UT had some really good teams at that time. There aren't any teams on that level, CONSISTENTLY, in the last 7-8 years. It's been KU and what, OU once? No OSU. No UT.

I think it was you that listed that more teams make the NCAA Tourney now. Cool. But in the Kelvin era, more teams were making NOISE in the tourney. I listed that out last night with the Elite 8 and FF appearances for teams like OSU and UT.

So yes, I agree that the bottom of the conference is probably a little better. But I also think the top is not nearly as good either. To some degree, there is a wash there in the overall affect on a team like OU.
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LOL at the bottom of the conference being "a little better". The bottom half of the conference is making the NCAA tourney at greater than a 40% clip in the past 8 years. In Sampson's time, the bottom half were making the NCAA tourney at a clip a bit above 10%. If you cannot see the difference, I don't know what to tell you.
 
152219 said:
LOL at the bottom of the conference being "a little better". The bottom half of the conference is making the NCAA tourney at greater than a 40% clip in the past 8 years. In Sampson's time, the bottom half were making the NCAA tourney at a clip a bit above 10%. If you cannot see the difference, I don't know what to tell you.
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I wouldn't want to stay on topic if I were you either.

Goodness. :ez-roll:
 
WTSooner said:
I wouldn't want to stay on topic if I were you either.

Goodness. :ez-roll:
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LMAO.

You throw out garbage statements, with data already presented that clearly shows the opposite is true, and think you actually made a pertinent point. Good stuff.
 
Having 1-4 strong teams and then mostly mediocrity below doesn't make an overall conference good.

That would be like making the argument if Gonzaga wins the national title this year and St. Mary's makes a run to the Sweet 16 that the West Coast Conference was a quality conference because the top of the conference did well in the NCAA tourney (8th best conference according to Sagarin).
 
just a thought....

Early Big 12 had 2 divisions...

Obviously in football we didn't play all of the north every yr...

basketball? only played north 1 time south twice? that's 16 games...

2 x 5 (south) = 10
1 x 6 (north) = 6

IF so...that could have an effect on Sampson's record. Only having to play ku/isu/mu 1 time vs 2...

I loved KS..so this isn't to bash him...just a thought~

Carry-on...
 
Soonerinkc said:
just a thought....

Early Big 12 had 2 divisions...

Obviously in football we didn't play all of the north every yr...

basketball? only played north 1 time south twice? that's 16 games...

2 x 5 (south) = 10
1 x 6 (north) = 6

IF so...that could have an effect on Sampson's record. Only having to play ku/isu/mu 1 time vs 2...

I loved KS..so this isn't to bash him...just a thought~

Carry-on...
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Yeah. You've made this point more succinctly than I ever could. There was a definite advantage to playing KU in the regular season 10 times in 10 years, and only five times in Lawrence vs. 16 times in 8 years, including 8 times in Lawrence. That's going to have an impact on your record.

Couple that with playing truly awful programs like Baylor and A&M 40 times (out of which Kelvin racked up 39 wins), and I think it's pretty unreasonable to argue that the unbalanced schedule vs. a balanced schedule does not have at least some impact.
 
Zim,

For the record, I accept what you are saying... I just hope it doesn't mean OU isn't a legitimately great program that can't consistently compete in the top half of a tough league.
 
thebigabd said:
Zim,

For the record, I accept what you are saying... I just hope it doesn't mean OU isn't a legitimately great program that can't consistently compete in the top half of a tough league.
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I do not accept that. OU can and should be finishing in the top half of the conference on a fairly consistent basis, regardless of the quality of the conference. That is the standard, and to the extent that Lon is not living up to it, he deserves criticism.

All I am reacting to is the people saying, "Kelvin won X% of his Big 12 games, and Lon only won Y%" as if that proves anything. It is not an apples to apples comparison. I've spent far too much time proving that relatively obvious point (though I have enjoyed going back and looking at the old Big 12 records).
 
For me, this is not a coach vs. coach issue. It is an issue of what is our current coach doing with the basketball program.

One can certainly understand a new coach coming into a program and having struggles in his first season. For example, Dave Bliss had a losing record (9-17) in his 1st season (1975-76). He coached 4 more seasons at OU and never had another losing record. (However, Bliss did fall off to 15-12 (6-8, Big-8) in his last season, which followed the 1979 Big-8 championship season.) I was there as a fan in the stands.

Billy Tubbs had a losing record (9-18) in his first season (1980-81). He coached 13 more seasons at OU and never again had a losing record. Kelvin Sampson never had a losing record in 12 seasons at OU, and his worst season had 13 losses (17-13) in his 2nd season at Oklahoma. I was there as a fan in the stands.

Here is the "metric" that has been a turn-off for me about OU's last two head coaches. The compete collapse of the team following a good run.

(Two 18 Loss Seasons) Jeff Capel followed his 2009 Elite-8 run (30-6) with the following collapse.

> 2009-10 ... 0-18 (4-12) .. 13 wins were vacated by NCAA sanction
> 2010-11 ... 14-18 (5-11)

(All-Time OU Record of 20 Losses) Lon Kruger had a great run, where he makes the Sweet-16 in 2015 and the Final-4 in 2016. Then he losses TWENTY (20) games after being in-charge of the program for 6 years. Whatever metric one pulls out of their hat, THAT is absolutely TERRIBLE. TERRIBLE basketball was the order of the day inside the LNC. TERRIBLE BASKETBALL did it for me. The Capel COLLAPSE followed by the KRUGER COLLAPSE is what ended my 40 years as a season ticket holder (1977-2017). If that makes me a "band wagon fan" .. then so be it. I am now a Television Fan rather than a Fan in the Stands. The drive down to Norman to see the games in person has become a burden. Rightly or wrongly, I blame Capel and Kruger for that. Going to the games used to be great fun for me. Now if the Sooners play with no energy, focus or effort, I just change the channel from my couch.

Lon Kruger is a very nice man with a lot of class as a human being. He will be the coach next season. I wish him great success going forward. I sincerely hope his team finishes in the top half of the conference, as this is my reduced expectation for Oklahoma basketball. I hope Coach Kruger exceeds these lowered expectations and has another great run over the coming seasons. I will be watching on TV.
 
the 20 loss season wasn't terrible basketball .. it was a bunch of close loses of a team that just wasn't quite good enough ..

and i too was at every one of those games as i have been for about 20 years now ..
 
BoulderSooner said:
the 20 loss season wasn't terrible basketball .. it was a bunch of close loses of a team that just wasn't quite good enough ..

and i too was at every one of those games as i have been for about 20 years now ..
Click to expand...

Everyone has an opinion. I disagree with yours in this case. In any event, for me, I do not miss attending the games in person. Prior to Lon and Jeff, I could not have imagined that happening to me.
 
BoulderSooner said:
the 20 loss season wasn't terrible basketball .. it was a bunch of close loses of a team that just wasn't quite good enough ..

and i too was at every one of those games as i have been for about 20 years now ..
Click to expand...

That might be the sunniest take ever lol
 
Zimwillett said:
I do not accept that. OU can and should be finishing in the top half of the conference on a fairly consistent basis, regardless of the quality of the conference. That is the standard, and to the extent that Lon is not living up to it, he deserves criticism.

All I am reacting to is the people saying, "Kelvin won X% of his Big 12 games, and Lon only won Y%" as if that proves anything. It is not an apples to apples comparison. I've spent far too much time proving that relatively obvious point (though I have enjoyed going back and looking at the old Big 12 records).
Click to expand...

Zim.... you've actually swayed some people on this forum, including me. Trust me, that is no easy task. I've been trying to sway people on different things for years and I think my hole is getting deeper. I will never give up. :)

Keep on posting....
 
My head hurts. I just don’t understand how you can post facts & someone disagrees with it. Conference is a lot tougher now then when ks was coaching.

OU should be better in conference but the results as a whole is solid. Lon’s bringing in 3 good Hs defenders with a lot of toughness along with Reeves & Williams. I just hop Kuath works out.
 
thebigabd said:
Zim.... you've actually swayed some people on this forum, including me. Trust me, that is no easy task. I've been trying to sway people on different things for years and I think my hole is getting deeper. I will never give up. :)

Keep on posting....
Click to expand...

Yes Zim has easily won the debate.
 
BoulderSooner said:
the 20 loss season wasn't terrible basketball .. it was a bunch of close loses of a team that just wasn't quite good enough ..

and i too was at every one of those games as i have been for about 20 years now ..
Click to expand...

That was a tough season, and the losses piled up. OU's SOS that season was #2 overall. Surprisingly, they were #60 in Sagarin and #65 in Kenpom. Their "luck factor" in Kenpom was #344 out of 351 teams, which means their record should have been considerably better than what it was. The issue with that OU team was that they couldn't put the ball in the basket consistently, and in particular, the team would have a scoring drought at the worst time. Seemed like they lost every game at the end of each game that year (of course, that is hyperbole, but just felt like they were snake bitten). But, ultimately, the record is what it is.
 
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