Slumming @ OrangePower

[Velvet Elvis]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Invitation_Tournament

During the NIT's first 15 years or so, the winners were hailed as National Champions by some, and controversy surrounded which tournament champion was superior. However, the Helms Athletic Foundation's independent selection of college basketball national champions chose the NIT champion over the NCAA champion in only one instance (1939).[1] In addition, from 1943 to 1945 during World War II, the American Red Cross sponsored a game between that year's NCAA champion versus the NIT champion to raise money for the war effort. In all three years that the charity contest was played, the NCAA champion prevailed.[2] Although some teams would play in both tournaments, beginning with Duquesne in 1940, it was not until 1950 that a school, the City College of New York, would win both the NIT and the NCAA tournaments in the same season. CCNY remains the only school to accomplish that feat. By the mid 1950s, however, the NCAA tournament was becoming the unquestioned premier college tournament. The NCAA began expanding the field to include more teams and over time, the NIT was relegated more and more to its current status as a "consolation" tournament. However, as late as 1970, Coach Al McGuire of Marquette, the 8th-ranked team in the final AP poll of the season, spurned an NCAA bid in protest of his team's placement in the Midwest Region, where his team would have to have played games further away from home than it would if it were in the Mideast Region. The team played the NIT instead, which they won. Such an action would be a violation of NCAA rules today, which prohibits the rejection of NCAA tournament bids.

 

[oSuJeff97]

I want some of what you are smoking. No way, no way is Eddie Sutton considered "legendary" for anything other than placing Kentucky on probation and being an alcoholic who allowed the alcohol to ruin his career and his sons (drugs and alcohol).

The guy never won an NC so come on he is not legendary and never will be as far as the NCAA is concerned.

That's just Bedlam garbage and you know it.

Like it or not, Eddie Sutton IS considered one of the great coaches of all time.

He took two different schools to the Final Four, for crying out loud. How many coaches have done that?

 

[Velvet Elvis]

I want some of what you are smoking. No way, no way is Eddie Sutton considered "legendary" for anything other than placing Kentucky on probation and being an alcoholic who allowed the alcohol to ruin his career and his sons (drugs and alcohol).

The guy never won an NC so come on he is not legendary and never will be as far as the NCAA is concerned.

Hey, however you want to remember it. He does not need me to defend him.

He is one of very few to take 4 Schools to the Tournament.
He is one of very few to have 800+ Wins.
He reached the Pinnacle of College Jobs (Kentucky).
He brought OSU Basketball back to the prominence it once enjoyed, inlcuding 13 out of 16 Tournaments, and 2 Finals 4s.

Furthermore...I can't argue with you about OU being a Top 10 Program at one point in time or another...I would have said yes in the 80's; however, OSU/OAMC was, without a doubt, a Top 10 National Program under Iba, and peers with Kentucky, UCLA, Kansas, Etc. Iba Coached the Olympic Team, and just about every single Coach that has ever mattered cites him along with Wooden, Rupp, and everyone else from that era as a Giant in the Sport.

The difference is, OSU went on a 35-year drought with only 1 Tournament appearance, and little overall success. As we all know, OSU Athletics received little overall support during that time frame, and was unable to capitalize on the success of many of their Programs.

 

[Big Old Booger]

That's just Bedlam garbage and you know it.

Like it or not, Eddie Sutton IS considered one of the great coaches of all time.

He took two different schools to the Final Four, for crying out loud. How many coaches have done that?

No, it's not bedlam garbage. Kelvin Sampson had a higher winning percentage in conference play than Eddie Sutton. Kelvin won more conference tournaments than Eddie (when he was at osu). So, is Kelvin a legendary coach, too?

 

[Velvet Elvis]

That's just Bedlam garbage and you know it.

Like it or not, Eddie Sutton IS considered one of the great coaches of all time.

He took two different schools to the Final Four, for crying out loud. How many coaches have done that?

What I want to know is, how many OU Coaches would it take to total Iba and Sutton's 1555 wins?

 

[Velvet Elvis]

No, it's not bedlam garbage. Kelvin Sampson had a higher winning percentage in conference play than Eddie Sutton. Kelvin won more conference tournaments than Eddie (when he was at osu). So, is Kelvin a legendary coach, too?

It would certainly be interesting to discuss if we did not have to wonder about how many of those players Sampson cheated to get.

 

[Big Old Booger]

Hey, however you want to remember it. He does not need me to defend him.

He is one of very few to take 4 Schools to the Tournament.
He is one of very few to have 800+ Wins.
He reached the Pinnacle of College Jobs (Kentucky).
He brought OSU Basketball back to the prominence it once enjoyed, inlcuding 13 out of 16 Tournaments, and 2 Finals 4s.

Furthermore...I can't argue with you about OU being a Top 10 Program at one point in time or another...I would have said yes in the 80's; however, OSU/OAMC was, without a doubt, a Top 10 National Program under Iba, and peers with Kentucky, UCLA, Kansas, Etc. Iba Coached the Olympic Team, and just about every single Coach that has ever mattered cites him along with Wooden, Rupp, and everyone else from that era as a Giant in the Sport.

The difference is, OSU went on a 35-year drought with only 1 Tournament appearance, and little overall success. As we all know, OSU Athletics received little overall support during that time frame, and was unable to capitalize on the success of many of their Programs.

Wasn't Iba the coach when we lost the gold medal game in Munich? (which was the first loss ever in the Olympics for the USA) Didn't some of the players complain that his style of play cost us the gold medal?

Iba is legendary thanks to the big 7 foot stiff who was a notorious goaltender. Of course, this was back before goaltending was illegal so it was a fair play. After that, he led osu back to mediocrity before he was fired. Because of his championships, and some of the coaches he produced, I'll grant you that he's considered legendary.

Sutton is not. You can argue until your blue in the face but he's not. Nobody outside of Stillwater considers him a legend, but if it makes you feel good at night thinking he is a legend, then you can keep on thinking it.

 

[Big Old Booger]

It would certainly be interesting to discuss if we did not have to wonder about how many of those players Sampson cheated to get.

Sampson only had 1 player who played in the NBA and that was Eduardo Najera. I guess you could count Taylor Griffin since he was recruited by Sampson too.

Considering Najera couldn't speak english when he was recruited, I don't think a few extra phone calls made a blind bit of difference to him. Taylor wasn't recruited by any big schools but OU so I'm sure he didn't have to make extra phone calls to him either.

So, Sutton had more players who made it to NBA rosters, yet Kelvin had a higher winning percentage with mostly marginal talent. Sounds to me like Kelvin is more legendary than Sutton.

Speaking of cheating...do you know who Chris Mills is? Think Sutton, FedEx, and cash money in an envelope. Sampson never paid a player so no way are the wrongs both committed remotely close to comparison.

 

[Velvet Elvis]

Wasn't Iba the coach when we lost the gold medal game in Munich? (which was the first loss ever in the Olympics for the USA) Didn't some of the players complain that his style of play cost us the gold medal?

Iba is legendary thanks to the big 7 foot stiff who was a notorious goaltender. Of course, this was back before goaltending was illegal so it was a fair play. After that, he led osu back to mediocrity before he was fired. Because of his championships, and some of the coaches he produced, I'll grant you that he's considered legendary.

Sutton is not. You can argue until your blue in the face but he's not. Nobody outside of Stillwater considers him a legend, but if it makes you feel good at night thinking he is a legend, then you can keep on thinking it.

Again, neither of these Men need me to defend them. What they have done stands on its own.

I do find it amusing how you have to rationalize and knit-pick every single achievement in OSU Basketball History. I am sure someone could do the exact same thing for Wilkinson and Switzer... and all of the criticism would be equally meaningless. Quite a bit of "If this, then that"...

I guess, based on your logic, all that really matters is where we are heading from here.

Would you prefer what OU or OSU is staring in the face moving into next year?

 

[Big Old Booger]

Again, neither of these Men need me to defend them. What they have done stands on its own.

I do find it amusing how you have to rationalize and knit-pick every single achievement in OSU Basketball History. I am sure someone could do the exact same thing for Wilkinson and Switzer... and all of the criticism would be equally meaningless. Quite a bit of "If this, then that"...

I guess, based on your logic, all that really matters is where we are heading from here.

Would you prefer what OU or OSU is staring in the face moving into next year?

I'll take OU's program over osu's any day of the week and twice on Sunday. OU had a bad season, but we did advance to the elite 8 last year and lost a great player. I expected a marginal season, but we didn't quite reach that but I know OU will be back. All I need is to point to the results of the bedlam games over the last 20 years (or whatever number of years you want to choose) and OU leads it.

Nice talking to you.

 

[Velvet Elvis]

Sampson only had 1 player who played in the NBA and that was Eduardo Najera. I guess you could count Taylor Griffin since he was recruited by Sampson too.

Considering Najera couldn't speak english when he was recruited, I don't think a few extra phone calls made a blind bit of difference to him. Taylor wasn't recruited by any big schools but OU so I'm sure he didn't have to make extra phone calls to him either.

So, Sutton had more players who made it to NBA rosters, yet Kelvin had a higher winning percentage with mostly marginal talent. Sounds to me like Kelvin is more legendary than Sutton.

Speaking of cheating...do you know who Chris Mills is? Think Sutton, FedEx, and cash money in an envelope. Sampson never paid a player so no way are the wrongs both committed remotely close to comparison.

Kelvin cheated to get...wait for it...Austin Johnson. If he was cheating on Austin Johnson, who wasn't he cheating on?

Ahhh Chris Mills. Never heard that one before...

BTW, Kelvin Sampson is an EXCELLENT Basketball Coach. I have NO Problem saying that. No "Ifs", "Ands", or "Buts"...

He is also a cheater, and banned by the NCAA. Eddie Sutton was never banned from the NCAA for cheating.

Believe me, we are all plenty upset and sad for Eddie for completely tearing down what he build up over a 16-year period, and ramrodding his son as Head Coach; however, I would never in a million years stick up for a guy that no only left YOUR Program in shambles, but also disgraced one of the most pristine Programs in College Basketball History.

But, YES, there is no doubt the guy is a great Coach!

 

[Velvet Elvis]

I'll take OU's program over osu's any day of the week and twice on Sunday. OU had a bad season, but we did advance to the elite 8 last year and lost a great player. I expected a marginal season, but we didn't quite reach that but I know OU will be back. All I need is to point to the results of the bedlam games over the last 20 years (or whatever number of years you want to choose) and OU leads it.

Nice talking to you.

I am sure you would...and you can take it! I would not trade with you either.

BTW, Bedlam Record, as i've stated before and like just about every other metric, is fairly even no matter which way you look at it.:eddie187_jpg_xs:

 

[Mr.B!!!]

Again, neither of these Men need me to defend them. What they have done stands on its own.

I do find it amusing how you have to rationalize and knit-pick every single achievement in OSU Basketball History. I am sure someone could do the exact same thing for Wilkinson and Switzer... and all of the criticism would be equally meaningless. Quite a bit of "If this, then that"...

I guess, based on your logic, all that really matters is where we are heading from here.

Would you prefer what OU or OSU is staring in the face moving into next year?

I'll grant Iba's status as a legendary coach, but his championships were won with a stacked deck [agricultural school deferments] at a time when a TON of eligible players were stationed overseas. Either way, I'll grant him legendary coach status becuase his peers did as well.

Conversely, regarding Sutton, I've never really liked him and his peers obviously do not hold him in high regard either by not getting him in the HOF. I think that at some point [like Switzer] he'll get in on the basis of wins once it appears that he will never try to coach basketball again.

As far as where the programs are at right now, things can change pretty quickly...this time last season, OU was set to go on a run in the NCAA Tournamnet, had a ballyhood recruiting class coming in and the hottest young coach in the country. See how that turned out?

 

[WaymanFan]

Nah... it wasn't the lack of a bench. We had several nice contributors off the bench that year... Terrance Crawford, Janover Witherspoon, Stevie Graham, Jason Miller... Frans Steyn... J/K

The problem was we had our first bad game in two months at the wrong time. We were a much better team than Georgia Tech and we jacked around for the first half and it cost us.

Even so, I'm not sure we would have beaten UConn in the championship game. They were the one team going into the tournament that year that I thought would give us problems.

Mainly because they were the only team in the field that could match up with us athletically across the board.

Perhaps you're right about UConn, but I'm curious what other OSU fans think of your bench that year. You only mentioned one decent player (Graham), and he turned out better than anyone could imagine - but I don't remember you guys getting much from him until the following year. Regardless, I think we can agree that was a great starting 5 you guys had.

 

[propoke]

There are only 7 coaches in the history of college bball who have more career wins. He may have had his demons, but like it or not he is a legendary coach.

 

[Mr.B!!!]

Really, I think that it is fair in "bedlam" to compare Iba to Wilkinson and Switzer to Sutton in the average opposing fans level of respect for the specific coach.

 

[propoke]

Perhaps you're right about UConn, but I'm curious what other OSU fans think of your bench that year. You only mentioned one decent player (Graham), and he turned out better than anyone could imagine - but I don't remember you guys getting much from him until the following year. Regardless, I think we can agree that was a great starting 5 you guys had.

I thought the bench was solid, but not great. When you start talking about NC type teams, there is usually at least one guy on the bench thats a stud. OSU just didn't have a player off the bench like that. I actually thought Steve is a better Pro than he was a college player.

 

[Velvet Elvis]

I'll grant Iba's status as a legendary coach, but his championships were won with a stacked deck [agricultural school deferments] at a time when a TON of eligible players were stationed overseas. Either way, I'll grant him legendary coach status becuase his peers did as well.

Conversely, regarding Sutton, I've never really liked him and his peers obviously do not hold him in high regard either by not getting him in the HOF. I think that at some point [like Switzer] he'll get in on the basis of wins once it appears that he will never try to coach basketball again.

As far as where the programs are at right now, things can change pretty quickly...this time last season, OU was set to go on a run in the NCAA Tournamnet, had a ballyhood recruiting class coming in and the hottest young coach in the country. See how that turned out?

For the most part, a fair retort. However, we could argue many different ways that Wilkinson had a "stacked deck". Try as anyone may, you can't discount the success of either. No one is going to buy that Iba was anything less than what he is.

Sutton and Switzer have countless interesting parallels.

As far as how things look moving into the future...I would compare what OU has going on right now more with what it appeared OSU had moving forward with Sean Sutton. Coming off a Sweet 16 loss to Arizona, #1 Recruiting Class in the Nation, #1 Recruit in the Nation, everything looking good, and then a massive 3 year Tailspin (2006, 2007, 2008).

OSU is on a completely different path right now. With OU, we'll see. I don't think it is going to be as bad as it appears (and it does not look good at ALL); however, OU won't be down forever, I agree!

 

[Velvet Elvis]

Really, I think that it is fair in "bedlam" to compare Iba to Wilkinson and Switzer to Sutton in the average opposing fans level of respect for the specific coach.

Could not agree more.

 

[Velvet Elvis]

Perhaps you're right about UConn, but I'm curious what other OSU fans think of your bench that year. You only mentioned one decent player (Graham), and he turned out better than anyone could imagine - but I don't remember you guys getting much from him until the following year. Regardless, I think we can agree that was a great starting 5 you guys had.

Terence Crawford and Janavor Weatherspoon were both very helpful as far as role players that season. Crawford and Graham were in the regular 7-man rotation, Weatherspoon #8. Not world beaters, but productive. 3 NBA Players on that team, and 2 more had cups of coffee (IMAC and Lucas).