Best of Big 12 coaches? Take a look at Self By Steve Walentik

[Sid]

http://www.columbiatribune.com/news/2010/jul/25/best-of-big-12-coaches-take-a-look-at-self/

 

[DFWHoopster]

http://www.columbiatribune.com/news/2010/jul/25/best-of-big-12-coaches-take-a-look-at-self/

would OU fans rate Capel 5th objectively? I don't see how he gets rated higher than Turgeon if consistency matters.

As for Drew... the writer says Baylor underperformed three seasons in a row prior to last year? Really? How is he measuring that?

2006-07 Coaches poll picked them 11th. They finished 11th.
2007-08 Coaches poll picked them 9th. They finished 4th.
2008-09 Coaches poll picked them 3rd. They finished 9th.
2009-10 Coaches poll picked them 9th. They finished 2nd.

That looks like one year of underperformance to me. And even in that season, it wasn't a total disaster. They won 24 games and made it to the finals of the Big12 tourney and NIT championship game.

 

[Dem Coltz]

As for Drew... the writer says Baylor underperformed three seasons in a row prior to last year? Really? How is he measuring that?

I don't think the only mark of underperformance is how your conference record compares to what the coaches voted in the preseason. If you finish 11th in the league it doesn't make it any better that you were predicted to finish 11th, it just means you couldn't take your team to a higher place than expected. His teams didn't excel, going 18-30 in conference for those 3 previous seasons, with one 11th place and one 9th place; thus his coaching career hasn't been great enough validate him being higher than 6th, at least in this writer's mind. Also, this guy isn't King Solomon he's just a dude writing opinions. There is no objective way to measure opinions.

 

[thebigabd]

Jeff Capel at #5 is laughable at this point. There is a very high possibility that 60% of the time he has been here OU will not go to any kind of post-season. We are all hoping all 8 newcomers pan out so that we can go to the NIT, and this is his 5th season! New coaching staff, all new roster, etc.

He took over a program that has been a constant winner, and produced the worst season in 40 years. He is under .500 without arguably the second best player in the history of the program and the #1 pick in the NBA draft.

This particular writer is giving him a lot of credit for work done with the Griffins...

 

[qwertyqaz]

Jeff Capel at #5 is laughable at this point. There is a very high possibility that 60% of the time he has been here OU will not go to any kind of post-season. We are all hoping all 8 newcomers pan out so that we can go to the NIT, and this is his 5th season! New coaching staff, all new roster, etc.

He took over a program that has been a constant winner, and produced the worst season in 40 years. He is under .500 without arguably the second best player in the history of the program and the #1 pick in the NBA draft.

This particular writer is giving him a lot of credit for work done with the Griffins...

train's on time...

 

[DFWHoopster]

I don't think the only mark of underperformance is how your conference record compares to what the coaches voted in the preseason. If you finish 11th in the league it doesn't make it any better that you were predicted to finish 11th, it just means you couldn't take your team to a higher place than expected. His teams didn't excel, going 18-30 in conference for those 3 previous seasons, with one 11th place and one 9th place; thus his coaching career hasn't been great enough validate him being higher than 6th, at least in this writer's mind. Also, this guy isn't King Solomon he's just a dude writing opinions. There is no objective way to measure opinions.

fair enough- but that 11th place finish was 3 years removed from one of the greatest trainwrecks in the history of college basketball. Baylor had Jerrells, Dugat and Rogers as sophomores- all solid big12 players.

But they were clearly overmatched in terms of talent and depth until Lace Dunn/Tweety Carter and better talent arrived on campus. Drew should get a pass for that year just as Hoiberg should get a pass for 2-3 years as he attempts to rebuild Iowa State.

In my mind, the clock on whether Scott Drew could coach started in 2007-2008 as he finally had a full allotment of scholarships to work with and had a few years to recruit/rebuild. From that year, Drew is 73-34 (25-23 in the Big12) with two NCAA appearances, an NIT final appearance and an elite 8 on his resume.

 

[boksooner]

Jeff Capel at #5 is laughable at this point. There is a very high possibility that 60% of the time he has been here OU will not go to any kind of post-season. We are all hoping all 8 newcomers pan out so that we can go to the NIT, and this is his 5th season! New coaching staff, all new roster, etc.

He took over a program that has been a constant winner, and produced the worst season in 40 years. He is under .500 without arguably the second best player in the history of the program and the #1 pick in the NBA draft.

This particular writer is giving him a lot of credit for work done with the Griffins...

And you give him none, so I guess it evens out. You are right that Capel should not be #5 on that list, but it is insane that you can exclude his best seasons and his best player development. It doesn't even make sense.

 

[Sawyer]

Flip Turgeon and Capel...

Self
Barnes
Anderson
Martin
Turgeon
Drew
Capel
Ford
Sadler
Knight
Boyle
Hoiberg

Problem solved.

 

[jerry]

Flip Turgeon and Capel...

Self
Barnes
Anderson
Martin
Turgeon
Drew
Capel
Ford
Sadler
Knight
Boyle
Hoiberg

Problem solved.

Agree only I put Ford ahead of Capel.

 

[Dem Coltz]

Mark my words boys - Capel will be ahead of Rick "wasted talent" Barnes in 3 years. Also I'm not buying Self as a great coach. Yeah he won a NC. He's no doubt a master recruiter. But losing in the Dance early has been his forte for far too many years, and losing early with more talent. The fact that he didn't realize his incredibly athletic and long team could press the crap out of N Iowa until the last 1:30 was the #1 reason Kansas lost that game. All due respect to N Iowa, they won the game by hitting big shots, but in every game there's also a loser, and the loss was based on not exploiting matchups.

 

[Max Power]

Mark my words boys - Capel will be ahead of Rick "wasted talent" Barnes in 3 years. Also I'm not buying Self as a great coach. Yeah he won a NC. He's no doubt a master recruiter. But losing in the Dance early has been his forte for far too many years, and losing early with more talent. The fact that he didn't realize his incredibly athletic and long team could press the crap out of N Iowa until the last 1:30 was the #1 reason Kansas lost that game. All due respect to N Iowa, they won the game by hitting big shots, but in every game there's also a loser, and the loss was based on not exploiting matchups.

I agree, also I think in 3 years Drew and Anderson will top this list.

 

[thebigabd]

And you give him none, so I guess it evens out. You are right that Capel should not be #5 on that list, but it is insane that you can exclude his best seasons and his best player development. It doesn't even make sense.

When you have been awful without said great player, it raises questions.

 

[campbest]

Don't see how you can put Capel ahead of Turgeon, his teams are consistently good.

 

[5hrenergy]

. Also I'm not buying Self as a great coach. .

Really? I just shake my head at people who continue to say this on this board. Whether you like the guy or not he absolutely dominates the conference and has a recent NC. Does Self have great players? Yes, but that should be to his credit as well as he has to recruit them. If Self wanted to come and coach OU do you think a single one of us would say no to that????

 

[thebigabd]

Really? I just shake my head at people who continue to say this on this board. Whether you like the guy or not he absolutely dominates the conference and has a recent NC. Does Self have great players? Yes, but that should be to his credit as well as he has to recruit them. If Self wanted to come and coach OU do you think a single one of us would say no to that????

Self has been great everywhere he has been.

 

[Cheno]

Mark my words boys - Capel will be ahead of Rick "wasted talent" Barnes in 3 years.

I don't know how you can talk about wasted talent after last year.
And Barnes has made the FF4 and Elite 8's so I'm not so sure he's wasted that much talent.

Also I'm not buying Self as a great coach.

He's not. Typically average coaches get premier jobs, win a national championship, take a mid-major to the Elite 8 and win their conference league title 10 of the last 12 years across 3 different conferences. :facepalm

 

[Dem Coltz]

I realize there was loads of "wasted talent" last year, but I see those guys as wasted potential rather than talent. They weren't great, they could have been great. Big difference. They could have been great because of their athletic ability, but their behavior and origin prevented them reaching full potential. Working hard is a talent, a lot of people don't have it. Rick Barnes has been burned by potential and talent without attitude before, but he still keeps returning like a moth to the flame. I'm hedging my bets if Capel gets a chance he'll learn from this past year.

And I realize Self has achieved a lot, he is no doubt a great recruiter. Best coach in this conference? Probably. But Great coach is what I said, and to me he's not. As a game coach he's shaky in my opinion. And winning a NC recently is the reason some now consider him great, whereas before that those same people thought he was overrated because he lost early in the tournament one too many times. Funny how that works. To me one event may change your legacy and reputation, but it doesn't change who you really are. Character is who you are everyday.

 

[5hrenergy]

I realize there was loads of "wasted talent" last year, but I see those guys as wasted potential rather than talent. They weren't great, they could have been great. Big difference. They could have been great because of their athletic ability, but their behavior and origin prevented them reaching full potential. Working hard is a talent, a lot of people don't have it. Rick Barnes has been burned by potential and talent without attitude before, but he still keeps returning like a moth to the flame. I'm hedging my bets if Capel gets a chance he'll learn from this past year.

And I realize Self has achieved a lot, he is no doubt a great recruiter. Best coach in this conference? Probably. But Great coach is what I said, and to me he's not. As a game coach he's shaky in my opinion. And winning a NC recently is the reason some now consider him great, whereas before that those same people thought he was overrated because he lost early in the tournament one too many times. Funny how that works. To me one event may change your legacy and reputation, but it doesn't change who you really are. Character is who you are everyday.

Who are these people?

 

[Sawyer]

There's really no good way to separate team building (recruiting and player development) and gameday coaching. Some argue they're not the same thing. Others feel they are. There's also the prestige factor that's impossible to measure (put Pat Knight at kansas and Bill Self at Texas Tech and I bet the list changes dramatically, but no one knows for sure).

The exact order really doesn't matter much, though. I'd say any of the top six (from my list; Self, Barnes, Anderson, Martin, Turgeon, Drew) would be successful at most jobs and are arguably interchangeable when you factor in inherent advantages/disadvantages and personal bias/preference.

Capel's close to that group, and Ford may be, as well, but both have yet to establish over a period of years that they can build a winner. Sadler would be a good coach if he had a program that he could recruit for on name only. Knight IMO is just not a good coach, and the last two are too unproven to say anything about right now.

 

[sys]

There's really no good way to separate team building (recruiting and player development) and gameday coaching. Some argue they're not the same thing. Others feel they are. There's also the prestige factor that's impossible to measure (put Pat Knight at kansas and Bill Self at Texas Tech and I bet the list changes dramatically, but no one knows for sure).

agree completely. the "coach" vs "recruiter" dichotomy is foolish.