Michigan State launches POY campaign for Valentine

[TINY]

"Just" 190 fewer points on the season, in other words.

Not sure if you factored in valentines 4 less games played into that figure, but his injury should put him further behind. How can you be player of the year when you miss 15% of the season?

 

[WTSooner]

Not sure if you factored in valentines 4 less games played into that figure, but his injury should put him further behind. How can you be player of the year when you miss 15% of the season?

Didn't Blake do something like that?

 

[WTSooner]

"Just" 190 fewer points on the season, in other words.

And if you add in the assist difference, Valentine is responsible for about 100 points more than Buddy.

 

[TINY]

Didn't Blake do something like that?

Good point. I can't remember how many games he missed but there wasn't anyone else with numbers comparable to Blakes I don't think.

Looked it up and he missed only the ku game (plus second half of Texas game) according to Wikipedia.

Also Blake averaged 23 and 14.5 rebounds plus 2.3 assists...30 double doubles behind only David Robinson all time with 31. Big 12 record for rebounds. fifteen 20-15 games, etc., etc.

 

[skyvue]

And if you add in the assist difference, Valentine is responsible for about 100 points more than Buddy.

Assists is a legit stat, but stretching it to claim the guy is "responsible" for the points scored by his teammates is a huge stretch. You overreached badly with that one.

 

[sperry]

Assists is a legit stat, but stretching it to claim the guy is "responsible" for the points scored by his teammates is a huge stretch. You overreached badly with that one.

That's not a stretch at all. If it weren't true, then assists wouldn't have much to do with the player and would be the teammates instead. When Buddy drives to the lane and two guys collapse on it and he dishes to Spangler for an easy layup, that's Buddy creating the points.

 

[SoonerBounce13]

Assists is a legit stat, but stretching it to claim the guy is "responsible" for the points scored by his teammates is a huge stretch. You overreached badly with that one.

yeah, lets go ahead and calculate the number of points that happened off of more steals that buddy had while we are at it

 

[SoonerBounce13]

That's not a stretch at all. If it weren't true, then assists wouldn't have much to do with the player and would be the teammates instead. When Buddy drives to the lane and two guys collapse on it and he dishes to Spangler for an easy layup, that's Buddy creating the points.

it relies heavily on another player scoring.

It is a good stat, but not really good in translating number of assists into points

 

[skyvue]

That's not a stretch at all. If it weren't true, then assists wouldn't have much to do with the player and would be the teammates instead. When Buddy drives to the lane and two guys collapse on it and he dishes to Spangler for an easy layup, that's Buddy creating the points.

It's Buddy playing a role in the points being scored, but not creating the points.

The vast majority of assists don't see the passer doing that much work to facilitate the bucket. A simple pass to an open man shouldn't, in discussions like this, count as two points "scored" by the passer.

 

[WTSooner]

It's Buddy playing a role in the points being scored, but not creating the points.

The vast majority of assists don't see the passer doing that much work to facilitate the bucket. A simple pass to an open man shouldn't, in discussions like this, count as two points "scored" by the passer.

I'm not going to have a detailed debate with you, but those are possessions that Valentine has the ball and gives it up to a teammate who is in a position to score. Often times, easily. That is something Buddy rarely does.

I believe assists are factored like that in calculations such as Ken Pom's personal efficiency stats.

 

[skyvue]

I'm not going to have a detailed debate with you, but those are possessions that Valentine has the ball and gives it up to a teammate who is in a position to score. Often times, easily. That is something Buddy rarely does.

I believe assists are factored like that in calculations such as Ken Pom's personal efficiency stats.

Valentine is asked to play more of a PG role than Buddy is. You want your shooting guard to pass it when appropriate, and Buddy does, but he's in there to score first.

Buddy's probably missed out on at least 10 assists this season when he's passed to Lattin, who then missed a close-in shot. That's what's wrong with assigning point-values to assists. The passer can only pass it; it's then up to the shooter to make the shot. If the shooter misses, according to the way you look at it, he indirectly penalizes the passer.

 

[campbest]

Valentine is the more complete player. Buddy is flashier and more likeable.

This is what it really comes down to in the minds of voters.

Valentine & Hield's PER are very close...30.35 vs. 29.78.

 

[WTSooner]

Valentine is asked to play more of a PG role than Buddy is. You want your shooting guard to pass it when appropriate, and Buddy does, but he's in there to score first.

Buddy's probably missed out on at least 10 assists this season when he's passed to Lattin, who then missed a close-in shot. That's what's wrong with assigning point-values to assists. The passer can only pass it; it's then up to the shooter to make the shot. If the shooter misses, according to the way you look at it, he indirectly penalizes the passer.

I understand.

But if assists/rebounds/etc is good enough info to be used in the PER measurement that the NBA uses quite often, it's good enough for me to use in this conversation. And that is really what I was getting at, if you did a PER calc for Buddy and Valentine, they'd be near even, or Valentine would be in the lead. It's a close race.

Edit: Just saw the post above. So the extra stats definitely pull Valentine back into the conversation.

 

[TINY]

I understand.

But if assists/rebounds/etc is good enough info to be used in the PER measurement that the NBA uses quite often, it's good enough for me to use in this conversation. And that is really what I was getting at, if you did a PER calc for Buddy and Valentine, they'd be near even, or Valentine would be in the lead. It's a close race.

Edit: Just saw the post above. So the extra stats definitely pull Valentine back into the conversation.

But the absence from 4 important games brings him back down.

 

[bgrch1350]

Hopefully Buddy wins it but The Valentine kid has my vote. 2 triple doubles!!! I can't get pass that. And there wasn't any overtime in those games. One was against Kansas. He had 29pts, 12 rebs and 12 assist against KU.

Down the stretch, Valentine has averaged over the last 5 games 23p, 9.8a, 6.8r
Buddy has averaged 23.8p, 1.4a, 4.6r.

Both great players. But there can be only one.

 

[bgrch1350]

But the absence from 4 important games brings him back down.

Only 2 important games. The other 2 were cupcakes.

You want to disqualify a player for missing 4 games? Thats like saying Buddy should win it not b/c he's the best player but b/c the other player up for it is disqualified.

If Buddy missed 4 games b/c of an injury, I wouldn't want him not have a chance to be POY b/c of it.

 

[snrlvr]

Be interesting to see what OU comes up with:

http://www.campusrush.com/campus-cl...e-poy-candidate-1619687764.html?xid=cr_social

He is not BuddyLove! Buddy just needs to finish strong! OU has plenty of info and stats they can send out for Buddy! He is the POY!

 

[WTSooner]

Hopefully Buddy wins it but The Valentine kid has my vote. 2 triple doubles!!! I can't get pass that. And there wasn't any overtime in those games. One was against Kansas. He had 29pts, 12 rebs and 12 assist against KU.

Down the stretch, Valentine has averaged over the last 5 games 23p, 9.8a, 6.8r
Buddy has averaged 23.8p, 1.4a, 4.6r.

Both great players. But there can be only one.

And numerous games with "near" triple doubles.

 

[TINY]

Only 2 important games. The other 2 were cupcakes.

You want to disqualify a player for missing 4 games? Thats like saying Buddy should win it not b/c he's the best player but b/c the other player up for it is disqualified.

If Buddy missed 4 games b/c of an injury, I wouldn't want him not have a chance to be POY b/c of it.

To earn a player of the YEAR, you have to have all of the above. When you miss important games during the season, when your team needed you, it should be accounted for.

The stat comparison yields no clear cut winner so you need to factor in everything at this point.

 

[bgrch1350]

To earn a player of the YEAR, you have to have all of the above. When you miss important games during the season, when your team needed you, it should be accounted for.

The stat comparison yields no clear cut winner so you need to factor in everything at this point.

He didn't miss any big games. This isn't football. The big games are still to be played. He just missed 4 games. If he misses any big 10 tournament games or ncaa tournament games then he's missed big games.