OU v. TX (Jan 9)

[tycat947]

Like it or not, most coaches aren't fired after one losing season. Capel was given one more year to improve before he was fired. John Blake was given 3 years when a lot of people wanted him gone after 2.

I didn't realize Gallogly's hadn't even moved here from Texas. That makes it seem like he's just a hired gun, brought in to lay people off.

Bingo!

 

[sybarite]

Syb, I did not bash Sherri or her coaches in my post. Which of my questions do you feel is unfair and not being asked by a lot of folks.

This was due to be an ugly season with no strong size and so many sophs and frosh.

The internet is a great thing in many respects. One of the downsides is that the bully now uses the internet rather than the school yard to hurt people. I sincerely try to avoid the practice but I do have questions based on what I see on the court.

Did I make reference to you?

I am referring to a thousand posts which offer no idea of what OU might be like without Sherri, as though we would suddenly be sensational with a different coach.

 

[Sweetest OU Girl]

Did I make reference to you?

I am referring to a thousand posts which offer no idea of what OU might be like without Sherri, as though we would suddenly be sensational with a different coach.

Keep in mind Syb that most of those people you were referring to are fans of other teams just trolling on this board.

And SNC is certainly not one of those trolling fans. I also never thought about his posts when I read your fairly well thought out post.

 

[sybarite]

I am actually asking for ideas. I see constant complaints, have seen them for several years. We still have people show up and claim that the program went downhill when we lost Bo Overton, as though women couldn't coach.

I want to see a complete program with reasons for its success. I want to know how you replace the fact that there has never been a real program at OU that wasn't totally dependent on Sherri for everything. You have to replace her fan base, marketing ability. You're going to have to show some reason for recruits to come to OU, especially if you don't have a Hall of Fame Coach.

Think and address all of the aspects.

 

[Sweetest OU Girl]

I am actually asking for ideas. I see constant complaints, have seen them for several years. We still have people show up and claim that the program went downhill when we lost Bo Overton, as though women couldn't coach.

I want to see a complete program with reasons for its success. I want to know how you replace the fact that there has never been a real program at OU that wasn't totally dependent on Sherri for everything. You have to replace her fan base, marketing ability. You're going to have to show some reason for recruits to come to OU, especially if you don't have a Hall of Fame Coach.

Think and address all of the aspects.

I agree on most of this.

I also want a female coaching staff. For some reason SC may not agree with that. She virtually refuses to schedule games under her control against teams with female coaches. I have often wondered why. What is you opinion about that?

 

[sybarite]

We play a lot of games against teams with female coaches. It is surprising how many teams have male coaches.

 

[soonermike22]

My problem with the OU wbb at present is two "problems" that I see.
1) In recent years past, we often seemed to play below our capabilities. This happens to all teams at times, but we had several years in a row thru last year, when we seemed not to play intelligent basketball, and often seemed not to be playing with "gusto", allowing teams with less perceived talent to win against us. Sometimes that is players, sometimes it is coaching, sometimes both. Whatever the cause, this years team seems to have more fight and hustle, but not the experience to overcome lack of size.
2) Lack of size-Mandy Simpson is smart and plays really hard, but is not big enough or athletic enough to outdo ladies 4 and 5 inches taller than her. Our older players don't contribute. Our forwards are not enough to overcome our overall lack of size, and teams have really hurt us with rebounding, and our fouls while trying to rebound against bigger players. This is totally a failure of the coaching staff in recruiting/evaluating players that should be juniors and seniors now. It is a failure of the Coaching staff to not have found transfers this recruiting cycle, or JC players, or some body of size to play center. You cannot be good if you don't have the ability to rebound, and protect the inside putbacks. Our young players play hard, show promise, and have ability, but lack the ability to break even inside.

Those two things are killers to having a consistent team, and a truly competitive team, and that can only be blamed on the coaching staff. Have the wbb coaches had a serious discussion with the AD, understand their failures, and have a plan to correct past problems? if so, we go forward as is, and evaluate success of that plan. If not, changes should take place.

And yes Sherri Coale is a Hall of Fame coach, a great person, and had OU close to the top of wbb once. But we are not close to where we should be in players, attendance, or wins. Every employee should be held accountable for what they produce.

 

[sybarite]

So. How would you select a coach to do better, and what would allow her to do better? How would she recruit to Norman? What would make someone want to come play for her?

 

[Sweetest OU Girl]

We play a lot of games against teams with female coaches. It is surprising how many teams have male coaches.

In the Big-12 games we do. We have no control about that.

But add them up in the non-conference games over the past 3 years. Other than in a few tournament games (again we have almost no control over the opponent), it is very, very rare.

 

[soonermike22]

I am actually asking for ideas. I see constant complaints, have seen them for several years. We still have people show up and claim that the program went downhill when we lost Bo Overton, as though women couldn't coach.

I want to see a complete program with reasons for its success. I want to know how you replace the fact that there has never been a real program at OU that wasn't totally dependent on Sherri for everything. You have to replace her fan base, marketing ability. You're going to have to show some reason for recruits to come to OU, especially if you don't have a Hall of Fame Coach.

Think and address all of the aspects.

Great coaches are replaced all the time. Often it is a struggle, but eventually we all have to go. We have several ex-players who are coaching, there are many young female (and male) coaches with ability to run a program, and Joe C has proven he has the ability to find them.
The unknown is just that, unknown. But administrators must evaluate, consult, instruct, and decide whether it is time to make a change, insist on new assistants, simply demand a standard of improvement, or set a time limit on time for ongoing changes to take effect.

 

[sybarite]

I mentioned some once-great programs: Texas Tech, Colorado, Kansas State. If you go back, USC was a national power that won some titles. Purdue was a power.

Why aren't these programs still great if it is just a matter of replacing a coach? Texas got GG from Duke. Nichts. OU has had exactly one successful coach of women's basketball. Is it that easy to replace her?

She has as many final four appearances at OU as Tubbs, Sampson, and Kruger combined.

Have you given any thought as to where those recruits are coming from?

 

[Sweetest OU Girl]

I mentioned some once-great programs: Texas Tech, Colorado, Kansas State. If you go back, USC was a national power that won some titles. Purdue was a power.

Why aren't these programs still great if it is just a matter of replacing a coach? Texas got GG from Duke. Nichts. OU has had exactly one successful coach of women's basketball. Is it that easy to replace her?

She has as many final four appearances at OU as Tubbs, Sampson, and Kruger combined.

Have you given any thought as to where those recruits are coming from?

What recruits are you thinking of?

 

[sybarite]

Basically, the better recruits. Oklahoma doesn't produce more than a couple of D-1 prospects of quality per year. You need other sources. What is the reason that these recruits will be attracted to you?

 

[SoonerSpock]

Basically, the better recruits. Oklahoma doesn't produce more than a couple of D-1 prospects of quality per year. You need other sources. What is the reason that these recruits will be attracted to you?

OU because of its state population and the competitive athletes concentration in competitor's regions has always had difficulties recruiting in all sports relative to its peer schools i.e. Texas, A&M, Ohio State, LSU, Alabama, Georgia, FSU, USC in football, Alabama, Florida, FSU, Oregon, UCLA, Cal, LSU and Washington in softball and Florida, UCLA, LSU, Alabama and Georgia in women's gymnastics and Stanford, Illinois, Minnesota, Michigan, Ohio State and Penn State in men's gymnastics, etc.

If you look at historical national performance in all the sports it is a concentration of a few schools that continually dominate the final standing, the super six, the WCWS, CWS and Final Fours/Elite Eights. Once in that top eschelon given there is coaching, money, history and facilities most programs are capable of sustaining that traditional success.

Sherri did so for a decade dominating the Big 12, Baylor and Texas ending in 2010. OU's still has the history, the money and the facilities to compete for the very best players but that talent has been missing for nearly another decade. Unfortunately Sherri has let the program slide and instead of competing for championships she is fighting to make the tournament as a lower seed. That is a progessive transition in the wrong direction. OU is fully capable of attracting talent on a national basis that will allow them to compete annually for the Big 12 conference championships. Asking OU to again be a national power is asking to much. But any argument that you cannot adequate talent to come to Norman to win the Big 12 is poppycock.

Chris Beard under more difficult circumstances than Sherri has was hired as the basketball coach at Texas Tech for the 2016 season and he has recruited and developed talent to the point that he has a top ten team that has beaten Kansas in the Phog and will push the hawks for the conference title this year. Amazing what you can do with attitude and effort.

Mark Williams, KJ Kindler, Patty Gasso, Bob Stoops, Lincoln Riley, John Roddick are Ryan Hybil are or were (Stoops & Roddick) able to successfully recruit top talent to Norman. They all did so with the same location disadvantages Sherri has except for the reputation they have created and maintained for themselves along with working their tails off for their talent.

Expecting Sherri's teams to compete at the same level of the football, softball, men's tennis, men's golf, the gymnastics teams or maybe any of the 9 sports that have won a conference championship since Sherri last won one may be asking too much. But to think that she could be a serious contender annually for conference honors and win 35-45% of her games against her chief conference rivals is not asking too much.

If the Sooners are still floundering like they are now in the 2021 season it is time for Sherri to be gone. She will have had 11 seasons to have made her team something more than barely qualifying for the tournament. She set the standard. She needs to live up to it. She is definitely compensated to do such.

 

[Soonerbay]

I am actually asking for ideas. I see constant complaints, have seen them for several years. We still have people show up and claim that the program went downhill when we lost Bo Overton, as though women couldn't coach.

I want to see a complete program with reasons for its success. I want to know how you replace the fact that there has never been a real program at OU that wasn't totally dependent on Sherri for everything. You have to replace her fan base, marketing ability. You're going to have to show some reason for recruits to come to OU, especially if you don't have a Hall of Fame Coach.

Think and address all of the aspects.

1. It's not that women cannot coach. Having men, women, grad assistants and experienced assistant coaches gives the coaching staff balance. You are dealing with all types of personalities and skill levels in the student-athletes and it helps when the coaching staff has roles to support and develop the team. Bo Overton initiated the contact and interest with E. Arriaran (class of 2005) from southern California and she ultimately told her club teammates (A. Paris and C. Paris) to consider talking to him. She went to the longhorns and OU still landed the twins. Overton initiated the contact and Stacy Hansmeyer took over the recruiting in California. Neither are with OU anymore. They must have known how to recruit effectively!

2. It's time for a new HC...if winning on a consistent basis is a priority for the program. When was the last time we heard SC say, "Winning the National Championship is our goal every year!". IMHO, I believe SC should remain with the university focusing on marketing and community engagement, such as Jodie Conradt with the longhorns. If she's given any management control over WBB, she'll still run it the same or micro manage.

3. Hmmm...she was not in the HOF when S. Dales, A. Paris, C. Paris, A. Olajuwon, D. Robinson, A. Thompson...or any other top 25 recruits arrived. So it's possible. Many coaches are able to recruit top 1-25 players without a HOF title. She has the title and who is she signing? IJS

And...

4. Look at the former players that are assistants on successful teams...A. Olajuwon and B. Brown (TCU...same conference), D. Jackson (MS State). How come they are not at OU? I forgot...Colton Coale got that job. :facepalm

5. What makes us think that any top player wants to play for SC? I remember looking at the soonersports.com snippets when they honored C. Paris' jersey. How is it that Jan Ross is nearly in tears, SC's BROTHER is so excited (I thought he was about to announce that the twins have more eligibility and are returning), their teammates speak highly...but SC was nowhere to be found in the videos other than during a game after the really good teams of those years went out there and busted their butts for her to be able to climb the ladder to cut the net.

http://www.soonersports.com/fls/31000/microsites/CP3/index.html

PS...I watched these snippets again. It appears the current team is made up of some really good high school players who want to become better and do the very best they can. But I don't see the passion in their eyes, I don't see the drive, I don't see their competitive expressions and non-verbal communication on the court...that the teams had back in the day. If OU could put another one of those good old fashioned whoopins on the longhorns and bears again so that I could see Mulkey's face in despair...I would buy five sets of season tickets and return to supporting the program. OK...I woke up from that dream.

#boomer

 

[SoonerinNC]

I don't buy location as a major reason for good or bad recruiting. The elite player want to play for a winning program and usually location is not an issue. Most of them play travel ball all over the country while in high school and I suspect that the additional exposure to unfamiliar places makes location a lesser issue.

Gasso gets almost anyone in California that she wants. Kindler gets recruits from Illinois and Minnesota and other places. Football gets players from anywhere. It is the quality of the coaching and the program that attracts good players. Who would want to go to central Mississippi, Columbia, South Carolina or Waco for any other reason. Downtown Hartford where the Huskies play a lot of home games looks like a war zone.

I have always considered Norman a nice place to be. Without other obligations it would be one of my favorite places to live. Nice small town atmosphere with a large city close by.

 

[sybarite]

At least, we have some legitimate discussion. Appreciate the well-thought out responses, spock and NC. Let me correct what I think is a misimpression.

Not long after I got out of the Army, I was in graduate school in Norman. My best man, a black man from Maryland, sent his little brother to me to guide through OU. He lived in the dorms. I was in an apartment. We had met in Baltimore. But, I was not close to him, only to his brother. Still am.

He came to me at least once per week to report on how things were going. I helped guide him to resources. The one thing I had no information about was the night life in Norman for blacks. He made some friends and got into it on his own. It helped that he was quite intelligent and handsome. Daddy had been career Navy, retiring in Annapolis.

After one semester, he came to me and expressed appreciation for my help getting his feet on the ground in college. But, he said he was transferring back east. His statements about Norman were gentle. It was a nice little town. People were friendly. But, he had never been in a "town so white" in his life. There was nothing for the young black in Norman, barely anything in OKC.

I've had more than one person state that. "Oklahoma is the whitest place I have ever been." When you are white, you don't notice this. When you are black, you notice a sense of loneliness. I found this out when my best man used to drag me to all black parties and strand me. Some black guys didn't like me talking to their girlfriends. Some black girls didn't like talking to a white guy who knows nothing about being black.

Oklahoma isn't exactly the ideal community unless you are a southern white. Most blacks who come to Norman don't stay there permanently. All of my black colleagues moved elsewhere to retire. All of them. Not one remained in Oklahoma. None. Nada.

If you are a young football player, this is not that difficult to recruit to. They don't really care. They are there to play football, to get a start on a pro career. Besides, Wilkinson and Switzer gave the football program a boost by being the first in the area to admit blacks, then to be dominantly black, including at QB. We had black football players ten years before Texas. It gave us a leg up among the various black highschool coaches and administrators. They had alternatives to the Big Ten or the black colleges. But, they don't stick around either.

The people that you recruit to do gymnastics are usually from fairly wealthy suburban white neighborhoods. Soccer is somewhat the same way. I don't know why, but softball has a similar experience. Sixty percent of the team is not black. Different sports have different recruiting targets. You won't find many kids whose parents put $100,000 into their kid's training by very expensive gyms in the ghettos. How many of these even remain in Oklahoma?

Now, are you sure you know where you will be recruiting basketball players. We don't get many out of the white suburbs of Dallas or Chicago.

Oklahoma hasn't exactly endeared itself to women across the nation. Look at the state's policies. Look at the fact that no other school has had their program closed.

There are a lot of problems that need to be considered. Are you sure you have thought them through?

 

[soonermike22]

Syb, your worry about blacks having a local social life may have been relevant in the 50's and 60's, but things change. Prospects from Oklahoma aren't bothered, and we haven't done a good job recruiting them. Prospects from Texas the same.
I am not a SC hater, or even anti, but I can see the lack of quality recruits from a few years ago hurting this years team from lack of experience, and lack of size. Coaches have to own their failures, as well as their successes. We also have had teams that lacked the ability to play hard, and that could be a failure to evaluate players or to motivate them. But the blame has to fall to coaching/recruiting when it happens year after year.
I agree with you that some of the criticism of our coaches may be overdone, but they certainly deserve some criticism for the lack of improvement over a long period. There is an old adage, the proof is in the pudding. Ours has been weak.

 

[sybarite]

Kind of have that backwards. We were OK in the fifties and sixties. Wilkinson invited Gautt in 57. I think Texas had their first in 68 or 69. We weren't largely black in the early sixties, but we were bringing in some. The SWC had its first in 68 (I think) at SMU.

Switer helped OU because he was able to communicate with the black community, having grown up among them. In fact, half the reason Royal hated him was that he could out-recruit Royal, largely based on race. When we had the year in which we got like 12 of the top 18 in Texas, most of them were black. We, essentially, had problems that caused us to fire Switzer which removed some of the good rapport that he had built.

The problem is that OU and Oklahoma have actually gotten worse since the Switzer years.

 

[OUDallas66]

I attend lots of High School games in the DFW area and try to watch players that are nationally ranked. As I have previously stated there have been only a few times in the last 8 to 10 years that I have seen a member of the OU coaching staff in attendance. Odyssey Sims, Alexis Jones and now Sara Andrews all from Irving MacArthur and no OU coaches. Only rarely do I see them at Duncanville, Cedar Hill, Lincoln, Madison, the Plano schools, Flower Mound, Allen, Dunbar, Argyle, Argyle Christian, Prestonwood Baptist and others. In the last 10 years these above high schools alone have sent over 35 players to major Division One Schools. The annual list of girls in the entire DFW area signing with various Colleges is 50 to 60 with about half being with Division One schools. This is always in the Dallas Morning News.

I do see coaches from UConn, Notre Dame, USC, UCLA, Louisville, Stanford, most of the Big 12 and SEC schools. It is no surprise that Texas A&M, Texas and of course Baylor are everywhere recruiting in this area. The Oklahoma State coaches are frequent observers as well.

Where are the Sooners? If we get the three best players in Oklahoma every year we are nowhere. I takes me three hours to drive to Norman from north Dallas. It should be the same for our staff to come here. It seems almost every year 10 to 15 of the Top 100 players are in Texas, why not place an emphasis on recruiting Texas? If we got just two of the top 10 to 15 players from Texas most years we would be much better off.

I don’t want SC fired or to cut her pay, just hire two aggressive assistant coaches, that’s what Baylor did 6 years ago, so did Texas. Hiring her son was not SC at her best, not well thought out. I don’t want a new head coach, just two new assistants with big personalities that are motivated.

Our focus should also be on Kansas City and other metro areas where girls basketball is big and not too far away in driving distance.

I’m not interested in OU football, history, or other weak excuses for lack of recent success. As someone in the locker room for 4 years, there were no problems with players from different backgrounds. My teams were good, but not great, we overachieved, but that was because of SC. SC sold me and I never regretted going to OU, she is a terrific person, I love her. However, there needs to be a substantial change in recruiting, now, for the future of the program. Our freshman may have some promise, but to be really competitive in the Big 12 we need to improve much more.

As a former player I am not happy with the current status of our program, are you?