March Madness and Covid-19

[MJSooner]

Agreed... I am aware of the famous line attributed to Ben Franklin. "We are a a Republic, if you can keep it"....
Depends on what you call "the system"... but regardless, I probably disagree. I am reminded of a letter I heard of that Thomas Jefferson wrote to James Madison, where he basically said it was unhealthy to bind future generations with the laws, values, etc of past/antiquated generations. He called it "tyranny of the dead".... I am not saying it needs to be blown up, but I think some reforms are needed.

I deleted most of the quote to save room on the thread, but love the discussion. While we are probably on different ends of the political spectrum, there is a lot of common ground, particularly on the need to change campaign finance and the need to hear more from the citizens' voices.

A couple of points of clarification.

• Not one conservative or center-right individual would ever consider Trump a "conservative". He can't even decide on his party as he has switched it to benefit him- what a shock. He was a Democrat up until 2009. Hmmm, he changed it when Obama was elected. Most of his idealogy does not match up with conservative principles. As much as I dislike them, Mike Lee and Ted Cruz are fundamental conservatives, not Trump.
• Being okay with change and moving forward does not conflict with the idea of conservatism. Conservatism means you want to "conserve" as you put it the traditional ideas of government. Just because you embrace the conservative principles of the Founding Fathers or the party of Lincoln, doesn't mean you want to "conserve" things as they were in the 1700 and 1800s. Conservatism can still promote change, just as long as it is consistent with "traditional" values and principles. Interestingly enough, I would say allowing marijuana usage state-by-state would be one of those values- it should be a state decision, not a federal decision.
• Limited government and conservatism isn't just defined by spending. The responsibility of the federal government is to make laws, provide national security, define foreign policy, to support a national economy, and to provide equal opportunity for all. This can all be found in the Articles of Confederation, the Federalist Papers, and the Constitution. If the fed spends to provide for these issues, it is doing so by limited government. But if the fed intervenes and creates more government, more bureaucracy and more programs to make the average citizen more reliant on government and give the government more control over the citizen, the government has become too big. You mentioned you don't have to go to college or retire so that means the government isn't too big or has too much control, but do you have the freedom to not fund those programs? Do you have the freedom to not pay increased tax rates or FICA that would pay for more government benefits? Of course not, so, therefore, the government has control and bigger than the citizen's rights of freedom and choice.

Yes, the "system" needs new leadership, and ultimately at times, it needs reforming. That is why we have amendments to our Constitution, Congress' ability to enact new laws, or the Supreme Court's power to overturn laws.

Ideology isn't the same as it was 233 years ago, hence the changes over the years through the above avenues, but thankfully, our system is.

 

[MJSooner]

Basic math.

If the US is the 3rd most populous country in the World, and we aren't going to believe China's numbers, that literally leaves ONE other country that should potentially have more deaths than us.

Wasn't somebody (you or not) just bashing Trump yesterday for not understanding per capita type statistics?

The US and China SHOULD have the most deaths. And the highest number of deaths. That is common sense.

Agree with this and it concurs with the point I was trying to make to Steve.

I was trying to make the point of throwing those numbers out there doesn't change the facts on the ground and only creates anxiety and fear. Just like the CNN or MSNBC "death tracker" they have on the side of their screen every day, throwing numbers out there about how many dies every day by the networks is borderline sensationalism. Sensationalism is still based on facts but is intended to provoke an emotional reaction or excitement/anxiety. That is why they don't report the recoveries or daily increase declines as it doesn't provoke as strong of a reaction.

I commend Steve for his work daily and his efforts for the last 3-4 weeks to help communicate about COVID19 on this board. There are those of you out there that have changed or at least softened your position. He deserves credit for some of that with his information and continual updates.

Maybe Steve will disagree with me, I feel we should just report the facts, and balance the facts to inform, not to stir emotion or anxiety. We have enough of that already.

 

[stormspencer]

Agree with this and it concurs with the point I was trying to make to Steve.

I was trying to make the point of throwing those numbers out there doesn't change the facts on the ground and only creates anxiety and fear. Just like the CNN or MSNBC "death tracker" they have on the side of their screen every day, throwing numbers out there about how many dies every day by the networks is borderline sensationalism. Sensationalism is still based on facts but is intended to provoke an emotional reaction or excitement/anxiety. That is why they don't report the recoveries or daily increase declines as it doesn't provoke as strong of a reaction.

I commend Steve for his work daily and his efforts for the last 3-4 weeks to help communicate about COVID19 on this board. There are those of you out there that have changed or at least softened your position. He deserves credit for some of that with his information and continual updates.

Maybe Steve will disagree with me, I feel we should just report the facts, and balance the facts to inform, not to stir emotion or anxiety. We have enough of that already.

Spot on. I couldn't have said it better. It's unfortunate that there is little to no reporting on all of positive aspects that are coming about in attempt to subvert the crisis including possible treatments, trials of existing drugs having promising initial effects, private companies retooling to help, and an overwhelming portion of the population actually doing their civic duty. Instead....it's largely *****ing, pointing fingers, and typical partisan reactions that we are all growing sick of.

"Out of the abundance of the heart…..the mouth speaks. There is one whose rash words are like sword thrusts. But the tongue of the wise brings healing. Let your conversations be always full of grace".

We could use a little more of the above right now.

 

[MJSooner]

The Doctor who is the Head of Infectious Diseases in OK says number of cases in OK is probably closer to 5000. Cited a study in China stating only 15% of cases were identified. IF that is the case here, he is probably light and it is closer to 7500 cases in OK.

Pair that with the number CDC is talking about, that 25% of the people that have the virus show NO symptoms, we have a lot of people walking around, or SIP, that have the virus and don't know they are positive.

https://kfor.com/news/oklahoma-doctor-believes-positive-covid19-cases-are-near-5000/

 

[hoopsaustin]

He was a prodigy of Fallin. If that still gets you elected it doesn’t matter what you do in this state.

Lol wuttt?

 

[hoopsaustin]

I base my thinking about Trump on facts and data. There's nothing blind about it.

:ez-roll:

 

[thebigabd]

Fauci getting death threats from right wingers.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/04/01/politics/anthony-fauci-security-detail/index.html

 

[WTSooner]

Maybe Steve will disagree with me, I feel we should just report the facts, and balance the facts to inform, not to stir emotion or anxiety. We have enough of that already.

I also think we should be VERY careful about what gets reported as fact. I'm seeing a lot of folks taking facts and trying to draw conclusions from them. Those conclusions, in most cases, are more opinion than fact. Everybody can look at those original facts and get to a different "opinion."

 

[steverocks35]

I also think we should be VERY careful about what gets reported as fact. I'm seeing a lot of folks taking facts and trying to draw conclusions from them. Those conclusions, in most cases, are more opinion than fact. Everybody can look at those original facts and get to a different "opinion."

This from the guy that shared a fake story from techstartups.com lol

Maybe sit this one out chief

 

[tooney]

Basic math.

If the US is the 3rd most populous country in the World, and we aren't going to believe China's numbers, that literally leaves ONE other country that should potentially have more deaths than us.

Wasn't somebody (you or not) just bashing Trump yesterday for not understanding per capita type statistics?

The US and China SHOULD have the most deaths. And the highest number of deaths. That is common sense.

Common sense would have led us to believe the scientists.....looked at their predictions and followed their directions.

We had a head start on how to curtail the number of deaths and then sat on our hands.

 

[steverocks35]

Common sense would have led us to believe the scientists.....looked at their predictions and followed their directions.

We had a head start on how to curtail the number of deaths and then sat on our hands.

Exactly this

 

[WTSooner]

Common sense would have led us to believe the scientists.....looked at their predictions and followed their directions.

We had a head start on how to curtail the number of deaths and then sat on our hands.

Give me a break. Had we went into full shut-down mode the minute the term COVID-19 was muttered in the states, the people would have rioted. Always easy to look back and say we should have done this, or that. I'm glad we didn't rush into anything, one way or another. Gather facts. We're still VERY likely to end up with a death count that most would have been content with at the beginning of this. One clown on here was predicting 15M deaths globally as the FLOOR! We're currently at less than 1M.

And we're still not even in full lockdown. Doing what we're going now only flattens the curve somewhat. Our curve, outside of a couple of large cities, hasn't been an issue yet. We'll see if that changes in the coming weeks. But doing THIS sooner? Probably would have changed very little.

 

[WTSooner]

This from the guy that shared a fake story from techstartups.com lol

Maybe sit this one out chief

From the guy who told me yesterday he only responds to comments directed at him. :ez-roll:

The guy is a doctor right? He said himself that that is how HE was treating patients, and having success. Are you claiming he lied? I don't care what his true position is with the hospital, or if there has been any verification of his story. I never presented it as anything, only posted the link. Mostly b/c I think that drug will end up playing a role in the treatment of CV. I didn't say he found the cure. I didn't say we can stop worrying or sheltering now. IIRC, I didn't say ANYTHING. Just posted the link.

A fake story would be if the doctor never said those things. I saw a video of him saying them. It might not be credited, but I haven't seen anything that shows he didn't say that or that he is flat out lying.

 

[vbdad]

The numbers do matter. Steve says:"What’s significant is the rate of increase. The curve is not flattening much yet."
Three things- 1) two weeks ago the CDC said the curve will peak between middle of May and mid June. So we shouldn't be expecting a flattening yet. 2) We are finally getting testing available for more people so we should expect a large increase 3) There are more people infected as expected. The stay at home orders are concur with about the time for someone to begin to have symptoms and be tested. And of course we really don't have much stay at home.

Fauci stated in the press conference Tuesday that the US was expecting 100-250K deaths from this and we were trying to lower the number. Channel 9's anchor said this is horrible news. It is except two weeks ago it was reported (not Fauci) that we could have 1-2 million deaths in the US. You tell me if even 250K isn't tremendously better? Hopefully most of these will be prevented.

 

[steverocks35]

From the guy who told me yesterday he only responds to comments directed at him. :ez-roll:

The guy is a doctor right? He said himself that that is how HE was treating patients, and having success. Are you claiming he lied? I don't care what his true position is with the hospital, or if there has been any verification of his story. I never presented it as anything, only posted the link. Mostly b/c I think that drug will end up playing a role in the treatment of CV. I didn't say he found the cure. I didn't say we can stop worrying or sheltering now. IIRC, I didn't say ANYTHING. Just posted the link.

A fake story would be if the doctor never said those things. I saw a video of him saying them. It might not be credited, but I haven't seen anything that shows he didn't say that or that he is flat out lying.

Yes HE LIED, and he got idiots like Laura Ingraham to give him a ton of publicity, and then she had to delete her lying tweets and Fox News had to retract their story.

And I didn't say I *only* reply to things directed at me, but I usually do. I couldn't let that go though, after you got humiliated over the dumb TechStartups.com nonsense.

 

[WTSooner]

Fauci stated in the press conference Tuesday that the US was expecting 100-250K deaths from this and we were trying to lower the number.

In my mind, that's a win if we keep the numbers in that range. Pretty much "best case", if you will.

 

[steverocks35]

The numbers do matter. Steve says:"What’s significant is the rate of increase. The curve is not flattening much yet."
Three things- 1) two weeks ago the CDC said the curve will peak between middle of May and mid June. So we shouldn't be expecting a flattening yet. 2) We are finally getting testing available for more people so we should expect a large increase 3) There are more people infected as expected. The stay at home orders are concur with about the time for someone to begin to have symptoms and be tested. And of course we really don't have much stay at home.

Fauci stated in the press conference Tuesday that the US was expecting 100-250K deaths from this and we were trying to lower the number. Channel 9's anchor said this is horrible news. It is except two weeks ago it was reported (not Fauci) that we could have 1-2 million deaths in the US. You tell me if even 250K isn't tremendously better? Hopefully most of these will be prevented.

Since you mentioned my name I'll reply to this. The 1-2 million was the number with no social distancing or any other measures. If you look at the South Korea model, testing in large numbers (orders of magnitudes more than the United States, even if not adjusted for population) and aggressive social distance, it's clear that we dropped the ball. These numbers could have been much lower. We could have contained the outbreak to one or two regions with an aggressive testing regimen but we did none of that. What we are doing now is good, but it's very late in the game.

 

[steverocks35]

Off to my covid-19 workgroup meetings, be back later, be safe everyone, we may disagree but you all are like family.

 

[thebigabd]

Yes HE LIED, and he got idiots like Laura Ingraham to give him a ton of publicity, and then she had to delete her lying tweets and Fox News had to retract their story.

And I didn't say I *only* reply to things directed at me, but I usually do. I couldn't let that go though, after you got humiliated over the dumb TechStartups.com nonsense.

Ouch, lol

 

[mict085]

Give me a break. Had we went into full shut-down mode the minute the term COVID-19 was muttered in the states, the people would have rioted. Always easy to look back and say we should have done this, or that. I'm glad we didn't rush into anything, one way or another. Gather facts. We're still VERY likely to end up with a death count that most would have been content with at the beginning of this. One clown on here was predicting 15M deaths globally as the FLOOR! We're currently at less than 1M.

And we're still not even in full lockdown. Doing what we're going now only flattens the curve somewhat. Our curve, outside of a couple of large cities, hasn't been an issue yet. We'll see if that changes in the coming weeks. But doing THIS sooner? Probably would have changed very little.

I agree. Had trump tried a shutdown and aggressive social distancing in January, the dems and liberals would’ve called him a racist and fought him every step of the way, same as they did when he invoked the travel ban, which was a great idea and the appropriate action at the time.

I am angry and frustrated with the government over their initial handling and slow response to the crisis. That is the way the govt has always handled things tho, so we shouldn’t be surprised by that. However, it’s the entire governments fault, not just 1 man. It’s the dems not working together. It’s the bureaucracy that causes so many problems and that’s many people within the govt, dems and pubs. People that blame 1 person are lazy and ignorant. Trump is an easy target for obvious reasons, but pelosi’s gang of liars are equally responsible for all of this mess, not to mention the idiots at the state levels. I’m sick of the politics. They all need to get to work and do their jobs.

They’re starting to do better and Trump has shown some real leadership during this crisis. Things are getting better but we still have a long ways to go. Now, if the state would get off their asses and get ventilators and PPE to the hospitals that really need it, that would help also. Still need more testing as well.