March Madness and Covid-19

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True, but the spread at this point is the real concern, not the mortality rate. The spread will lead to a stress load on our healthcare system and overload it if not controlled. The mortality rate in the US is well below the global average at about 1.9%, and that is without large scale testing that will explode the number of cases, but not the fatality rate.

But to demonstrate your point, I think I read on the Oklahoma Department of Health statistics that, as of this morning, there have been 10 positive cases of COVID-19 and 174 negatives. That means 174 of 184 people or doctors thought they had the symptoms, but tested negative.

Absolutely -- the communicability is very concerning. Even a 0.01% mortality rate can add up if nearly ever citizen is infected. Stating that some of the actions taken are overblown does not mean that this disease isn't in any way concerning. I'm exhausted at the moment, so this may read like a random assortment of thoughts, but here are a few:

I agree with you that the mortality rates will plummet. Every state/hospital is a little different, but those 184 people tested in OK were likely stratified as "high-risk patients," and it was still a low-rate of positive tests. I'm betting that >90% of those 184 patients had viral illnesses...which just goes to show how many nonspecific viral illness are always floating around at one time. Furthermore, if we tested everybody, we would start seeing more asymptomatic/mild patients.

When a patient comes in with nonspecific signs of infection, we do a workup to rule out bacterial infection (would benefit from antibiotics). Once we've determined it's likely viral, we send them home and tell them to rest and eat/hydrate well (unless they have severe symptoms like dyspnea requiring supplemental oxygen, IV hydration secondary to nausea/vomiting, etc.). That makes me think - how many times do we miss these new strains? We don't go chasing specific causes of viral illnesses most years. What if stuff like this happens once every few years, and we just don't panic because we're not aware?

"This is different than the flu." True. It actually more closely resembles a bad strain of the common cold. The old strains of coronavirus are literally considered a variation of the common cold. But, of course, this is a worse mutation of that, so it's still apples to oranges.

Do we really need to test everybody? What does that accomplish? If they develop ARDS or need to be intubated, we don't really need to know it was COVID-19 to treat. Sure, it helps a little, but I feel it's mainly for our curiosity. I think it's reasonable for all patients with viral illnesses to self-quarantine themselves for several days. Even if it's actually the flu, that can still kill the elderly and immunocompromised. We should honestly be quarantining ourselves better than we do even in years when viral illnesses aren't that bad.

Depsite my insistence that this panic is likely an overreaction, there have been many good measures put in place. Washing hands is a wonderful thing (but this should have been done before). Those that can work from home, should work from home (this might even help businesses to innovate...anybody read 4-hour work week?). Travel from China should be restricted/screened (this should have been implented months ago). As mentioned above, self-quarantining is a very responsible thing to do, and I hope that people continue to do a better job of this even when we get past this pandemic. I also think that hospitals should be better equipped with ventilators, negative-pressure rooms, etc to handle a situation like this, but it has to be financially responsible for a hospital to actually take these steps. My hope is that this will lead to our country being better able to handle the next pandemic.

On the flip-side - as I mentioned above, this disease isn't causing healthy 25 year olds to drop dead, so why aren't we letting the NBA play? I understand the empty arenas, but at least give people something to watch while they're quarantining themselves at home, and don't cripple the economy any more than it already has been. Donovan Mitchell didn't even know he was sick from what I've heard, and it sounds like Rudy Gobert was planning to play even when his symptoms were at their worst. Also, there was talk of shutting down the NYC subway briefly (thankfully rational minds prevailed). Many people depend on that subway to put food on the table. Viruses are often easily conquered, but starvation is undefeated eventually.

I do think the ventilators is a concern, and from the sounds of it, it has already become an issue in a few of the worst areas. To that end, I think it's a great idea that many hospitals are temporarily canceling all non-emergent surgeries (freeing up more ventilators). One of my bigger worries is how quickly we are being encouraged to intubate. In a normal patient, when we have a patient with shortness of breath, there are several steps we can take before intubating. Due to the fear of aerosolizing the viral particles and thus increasing its spread, we are encouraged to avoid some of these methods and go straight to inbutation. One of those methods is high-flow nasal cannula, and I don't think the fear of its use if warranted if it can keep some people off the vent.

I had few more thoughts, but got interrupted. I'll probably stop by later today to add a little more.
 
Absolutely -- the communicability is very concerning......

On the flip-side - as I mentioned above, this disease isn't causing healthy 25 year olds to drop dead, so why aren't we letting the NBA play?


I think you answered your own question earlier in your post. This virus is spread so easily, so quickly, and by individuals that are nonsymptomatic. Gobert gave it to an 11 year old kid just signing an autograph. That is the reason they shut it down. If one person gets it, now you quarantine the team, and the team they played. Then how does that impact the rest of the schedule when teams can't play due to isolation?

I hate it, but it is the right call.
 
But you’re assuming that we aren’t really at risk when we know that this virus is at minimum 8 times more lethal than seasonal flu for even healthy people. And it’s impossible to “build a wall” around all people with underlying issues. It’s just not possible.

We have no idea if it's actually 8X more lethal than the flu. These numbers are highly flawed, and mortality rates tend to plummet as we progress. I expect the numbers to be much different when the dust settles. There is a lot of uncertainty at the moment.

Building a perfect wall isn't feasible, but building a good wall is feasible. I know many healthy adults with severe comorbidities that are quarantining themselves voluntarily. I also know that many hospitals are limiting visitors much more stringently than usual now. I also think it's a good idea to severely restrict nursing home visitations. And as was mentioned above, healthy people wanting to help should offer to run errands for those likely to be more affected by this virus.
 
I think you answered your own question earlier in your post. This virus is spread so easily, so quickly, and by individuals that are nonsymptomatic. Gobert gave it to an 11 year old kid just signing an autograph. That is the reason they shut it down. If one person gets it, now you quarantine the team, and the team they played. Then how does that impact the rest of the schedule when teams can't play due to isolation?

I hate it, but it is the right call.

I hadn't heard the story of the 11-year-old, but a few thoughts:

1) It would be very tough to say the 11 yo got it from Gobert. At best, it's an educated guess. He MIGHT have gotten it from him. But you're 100% correct that it can be spread via asymptomatic carriers, and thus this is a very real possibility.

2) Don't let players sign autographs. No fans at all. Just players/coaches/refs and a few additional people to clean. Maybe give some seats away for absurd prices that only billionaires can pay and donate that money to COVID-19 relief. And enforce strict self-quarantine rules on the players.
 
well, the speculation about the kid may be a reach ... but I see the Christian Wood exposure as being even more culpable by Gobert.
 
well, the speculation about the kid may be a reach ... but I see the Christian Wood exposure as being even more culpable by Gobert.

Agreed, but if three people that came into contact with Gobert got it, with no other contact with anyone that has the virus, it is pretty good speculation where they got it. It also aligns with the statistics on spread rate that an infected person will shed it at least to 2-3 people.
 
We have no idea if it's actually 8X more lethal than the flu. These numbers are highly flawed, and mortality rates tend to plummet as we progress. I expect the numbers to be much different when the dust settles. There is a lot of uncertainty at the moment.

Building a perfect wall isn't feasible, but building a good wall is feasible. I know many healthy adults with severe comorbidities that are quarantining themselves voluntarily. I also know that many hospitals are limiting visitors much more stringently than usual now. I also think it's a good idea to severely restrict nursing home visitations. And as was mentioned above, healthy people wanting to help should offer to run errands for those likely to be more affected by this virus.

How are the numbers highly flawed? If they were highly flawed why would the world be taking these drastic actions? I don’t know any country that would put their economy in the tank based on flawed numbers. What you are saying is that the world has undergone a mass delusion.
 
Fantastic information Eielson. Please post more after you get some rest buddy.

It's good to hear from a physician on the ground as to how we should react to something (as a non-clinician) we don't yet fully understand and what reasonable actions we can take to try to improve or even stagnate the situation. Your feedback brings at least a few of us some comfort and hopefully lessens the overreaction/fear that others may be feeling.
 
Do we really need to test everybody? What does that accomplish? If they develop ARDS or need to be intubated, we don't really need to know it was COVID-19 to treat. Sure, it helps a little, but I feel it's mainly for our curiosity. I think it's reasonable for all patients with viral illnesses to self-quarantine themselves for several days. Even if it's actually the flu, that can still kill the elderly and immunocompromised. We should honestly be quarantining ourselves better than we do even in years when viral illnesses aren't that bad.

The problem here is the symptoms are very similar to lots of other more common ailments. So, without extensive testing people don't know if they have the flu, a sinus infection, bronchitis, or Covid-19.

So what will they do? They will go to hospitals and health clinics like any sick person will do. The CDC has said (and repeated today) that they don't want people going into the healthcare system to get tested if they might have Covid-19. This presents a problem.

Next problem... Without extensive testing you don't know where it is, how many have it, what are emerging hot spots, etc.

Massive testing has allowed the Chinese to ward off sections of their response... low risk, medium risk, high risk, and people who are sick but not with Covid-19.

When you have information, you can respond, you can make decisions. The data you need is a result of extensive testing. I can't send response units to Phoenix to deal with an outbreak, for example, if I don't know if anyone in Phoenix has it. I need testing to get that data, and I need to keep them out of the healthcare system for such testing.

I wouldn't call it a curiosity at all, especially when they are specifically telling people not to go to the hospital if they have they have Covid-19. That guideline right there makes mobile, mass testing seem very critical to me.

Or am I not thinking about this correctly?
 
How are the numbers highly flawed? If they were highly flawed why would the world be taking these drastic actions? I don’t know any country that would put their economy in the tank based on flawed numbers. What you are saying is that the world has undergone a mass delusion.

They are highly flawed because we're less than 3 months into this thing.

You think they base the death rates of the flu or other diseases on THREE months of spotty data?

Good grief. This is the crap that irritates me, and why I said earlier that people are presenting things as fact that are not fact. At least, not fact in the way some of the comparable data is fact.

We're still at the point that we don't know what we don't know.
 
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They are highly flawed because we're less than 3 months into this thing.

You think they base the death rates of the flu or other diseases on THREE months of spotty data?

Good grief. This is the crap that irritates me, and why I said earlier that people are presenting things as fact that are not fact. At least, not fact in the way some of the comparable data is fact.

We're still at the point that we don't know what we don't know.

We have a really good idea of the mortality rates because we already have a huge pile of data. The sample size is plenty large enough because there have been thousands of cases around the world. In fact, we can use the mortality rate to estimate the number of cases in a region. Now, if you don’t believe the data, let us know why you don’t believe it. Did you find errors in the link I posted? If so, please point the errors out.
 
We have a really good idea of the mortality rates because we already have a huge pile of data. The sample size is plenty large enough because there have been thousands of cases around the world. In fact, we can use the mortality rate to estimate the number of cases in a region. Now, if you don’t believe the data, let us know why you don’t believe it. Did you find errors in the link I posted? If so, please point the errors out.

Huge pile of data? lol, get out of here. We have less than 3 months of data, and that data is spotty, government influenced (not just the US), and incomplete.

How can you calculate mortality rates when we have NO idea how many un-diagnosed infected people we have? Guess? Even an educated guess is still a guess. With the numbers as low as they are, if we're off even a little bit that could have a HUGE affect on calculation. I guarantee a year from now, or 5 years from now, if this thing is still around, we'll have a much better idea of the true mortality rate, and it'll be substantially different than what is being reported now. Heck, what is being reported now varies largely from source to source.
 
Huge pile of data? lol, get out of here. We have less than 3 months of data, and that data is spotty, government influenced (not just the US), and incomplete.

How can you calculate mortality rates when we have NO idea how many un-diagnosed infected people we have? Guess? Even an educated guess is still a guess. With the numbers as low as they are, if we're off even a little bit that could have a HUGE affect on calculation. I guarantee a year from now, or 5 years from now, if this thing is still around, we'll have a much better idea of the true mortality rate, and it'll be substantially different than what is being reported now. Heck, what is being reported now varies largely from source to source.

Yes we have a huge pile of data. Thousands of cases. Statistically significant numbers. Please point out the errors in the data from the link I posted.
 
By the way, he said that 6 days ago, they changed their tune at today’s press conference. They said this could go on until August or later.
 
By the way, he said that 6 days ago, they changed their tune at today’s press conference. They said this could go on until August or later.

What does August or later have to do with mortality rates for certain ages compared to the flu?

Nothing. Nothing at all.
 
What does August or later have to do with mortality rates for certain ages compared to the flu?

Nothing. Nothing at all.

It means they are taking this way more seriously than you are, and way more seriously than they were 6 days ago. Btw, what were the errors in the data in the link I posted?
 
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It means they are taking this way more seriously than you are, and way more seriously than they were 6 says ago. Btw, what were the errors in the data in the link I posted?

I already answered your question. Stop asking it.
 
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