Rank the Big XII Coaches

[campbest]

Let's take a poll...if you asked Blake Griffin if Coach Capel helped him develop into the number 1 overall pick...what do you think he would say?

Come on now.

 

[HoHum]

There were a couple of posters in the 'James Anderson' thread saying that Anderson improved solely because of James Anderson. I thought it was ridiculous, but I'll be interested if those posters feel the same way about Griffin?

 

[stoops4pres]

Let's take a poll...if you asked Blake Griffin if Coach Capel helped him develop into the number 1 overall pick...what do you think he would say?

Come on now.

Exactly.

 

[campbest]

Exactly.

Will also add as a caveat, however, that the staff in place was equally responsible. Capel probably laid the foundation for what to work on, etc...but the assistant and GA's were the ones that opened the gym and put in the time.

 

[gracefor24]

Hate to break it to you but the poster failing to understand the gist of our conversation does not validate your point. You didn't specify for a freshman. You said that BG was already an outstanding player from day 1. Which he wasn't. 22 and 14 is outstanding. 14 and 9 is not. For a freshman? Yes, he was outstanding FOR A FRESHMAN. Was he an outstanding PLAYER? No, which was what I and other posters as well have been saying all along: He grew into an outstanding player thanks in large part to Capel.

14 and 9 is pretty darn good. I would say outstanding isn't too overboard for a guy who was 1st Team All Big 12.

 

[152219]

There were a couple of posters in the 'James Anderson' thread saying that Anderson improved solely because of James Anderson. I thought it was ridiculous, but I'll be interested if those posters feel the same way about Griffin?

I hope you are not referring to my posts....my comment was that James Anderson' deserves MOST of the credit, not solely, just like Griffin. The coaches play a role, but the players still have to put in the work, and the work is were it all starts.

 

[HoHum]

I hope you are not referring to my posts....my comment was that James Anderson' deserves MOST of the credit, not solely, just like Griffin. The coaches play a role, but the players still have to put in the work, and the work is were it all starts.

The ones I mainly were referring too were by DM and DenverSooner.

I agree that the majority falls onto the player. He/she has to WANT to become better. But, at least from what I gathered from their posts were saying Anderson improved so much from his freshman year to his junior solely because he was James Anderson.

Which I don't believe is true for any player.

 

[DenverSooner]

The ones I mainly were referring too were by DM and DenverSooner.

I agree that the majority falls onto the player. He/she has to WANT to become better. But, at least from what I gathered from their posts were saying Anderson improved so much from his freshman year to his junior solely because he was James Anderson.

Which I don't believe is true for any player.

I don't think I said the Coaches had nothing to do with James Anderson's improvement. I believe I said James Anderson was not some great find that came from nowhere. He was a McD AA and expected to be a great player. He led OSU in scoring as a true freshman. The fact that he is better now is not unexpected.

I think Ford and his staff did everything they could to help James Anderson just as Capel and his staff did everything they could to help Blake Griffin. I just think the player is primarily responsible for their own development. Which interestingly is what you stated above.

 

[HoHum]

I don't think I said the Coaches had nothing to do with James Anderson's improvement. I believe I said James Anderson was not some great find that came from nowhere. He was a McD AA and expected to be a great player. He led OSU in scoring as a true freshman. The fact that he is better now is not unexpected.

I think Ford and his staff did everything they could to help James Anderson just as Capel and his staff did everything they could to help Blake Griffin. I just think the player is primarily responsible for their own development. Which interestingly is what you stated above.

I guess I was thrown off by the "the OSU coaches did not develop him" statement.

 

[stoops4pres]

14 and 9 is pretty darn good. I would say outstanding isn't too overboard for a guy who was 1st Team All Big 12.

Disagree.

From my view, an outstanding player isn't someone that puts up 14 and 9, but more. Are they very good? Yes. But is that distinguishing oneself from others in excellence? No. Because if 14 and 9 did distinguish itself from others, then hardly any D1 players would be putting that up on a yearly basis. But quite a bit of players do put up those numbers, or relatively close to. 14 and 9 is very good. 22 and 14 is outstanding.

 

[DenverSooner]

I guess I was thrown off by the "the OSU coaches did not develop him" statement.

What I originally said was:

Anderson was a big time recruit out of Arkansas. They did not find him or develop him (and I don't mean that as a slam to the OSU coaches). Everyone knew about James Anderson.

When someone said OSU did not develop Anderson, I then acknowledged that he was a better player. I am not sure if I used the words "OSU coaches did not develop him" but to the extend I did you are taking that way out of context. If you want to go look at the entire thread I attempted to put a link below.

http://ouhoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=13511&highlight=anderson


I do not remotely mean to insult Capel or Ford with respect to the development of Griffin or Anderson. Let me say it one more time CAPEL DID A GREAT JOB WITH BLAKE GRIFFIN.

 

[stoops4pres]

Will also add as a caveat, however, that the staff in place was equally responsible. Capel probably laid the foundation for what to work on, etc...but the assistant and GA's were the ones that opened the gym and put in the time.

That's already a given. I should have said Capel & Co., but I hope that I needed not to. I was assuming fellow posters figured that.

 

[gracefor24]

Disagree.

From my view, an outstanding player isn't someone that puts up 14 and 9, but more. Are they very good? Yes. But is that distinguishing oneself from others in excellence? No. Because if 14 and 9 did distinguish itself from others, then hardly any D1 players would be putting that up on a yearly basis. But quite a bit of players do put up those numbers, or relatively close to. 14 and 9 is very good. 22 and 14 is outstanding.

Well, 1st Team All Big 12 is an outstanding year and only 5 players in the conference receive that honor. I would call that distinguishing yourself from others in excellence. Wouldn't you?

There are only 28 players in Division 1 basketball averaging 14 points and 9 rebounds this year. That's out of around 3500 players, right?

There are only 10 players who play in major conferences averaging 14 and 9! Only 2 players in the Big 12 are averaging over 14 and 9 right now (Gilstrap and James).

I think you are forgetting that 14 and 9 are VERY impressive numbers in a college game. Less than 1% of college basketball players achieve those numbers.

So, it looks like the facts say that Blake Griffin was OUTSTANDING his Freshman year and he was PHENOMENAL his Sophomore year!

 

[stoops4pres]

Well, 1st Team All Big 12 is an outstanding year and only 5 players in the conference receive that honor. I would call that distinguishing yourself from others in excellence. Wouldn't you?

There are only 28 players in Division 1 basketball averaging 14 points and 9 rebounds this year. That's out of around 3500 players, right?

There are only 10 players who play in major conferences averaging 14 and 9! Only 2 players in the Big 12 are averaging over 14 and 9 right now (Gilstrap and James).

I think you are forgetting that 14 and 9 are VERY impressive numbers in a college game. Less than 1% of college basketball players achieve those numbers.

So, it looks like the facts say that Blake Griffin was OUTSTANDING his Freshman year and he was PHENOMENAL his Sophomore year!

I guess your belief of outstanding differs from mine. When I think outstanding, I think All American type player, one of the VERY best players in the country. I don't consider just from the sole fact that you're an All Conference player that automatically qualifies you as an "outstanding" player. Are they very good? Yes. Are they outstanding? If you're 14 and 9 (or close to those numbers, which was what I had been saying)and All Conference, I don't think "outstanding" is the key word. I suppose I set the bar high for outstanding achievements, so its fine to disagree, but I don't think if you meet the 14 and 9 mark you're an outright "outstanding player". There's a difference between "very good" and "outstanding" and some of you are treating as if they're one in the same.

 

[gracefor24]

I guess your belief of outstanding differs from mine. When I think outstanding, I think All American type player, one of the VERY best players in the country. I don't consider just from the sole fact that you're an All Conference player that automatically qualifies you as an "outstanding" player. Are they very good? Yes. Are they outstanding? If you're 14 and 9 (or close to those numbers, which was what I had been saying)and All Conference, I don't think "outstanding" is the key word. I suppose I set the bar high for outstanding achievements, so its fine to disagree, but I don't think if you meet the 14 and 9 mark you're an outright "outstanding player". There's a difference between "very good" and "outstanding" and some of you are treating as if they're one in the same.

I like how you completely ignored the body of my post and the facts I presented so that you could hold on to your belief!! I admire your tenacity!!:ez-roll:

So, I'll ask again. Being 1 of 10 players in the country to achieve something isn't outstanding? He may not have made All American but we all know half of those spots are decided before the year begins and some are outright jokes.

I guess your definition of outstanding is whatever allows you to not admit you were off base.

Oh yeah, I checked and there were 12 guys from major conferences in 2007-08 who averaged 14 points and 9 rebounds.

Here's the definition of "outstanding":

out·stand·ing   [out-stan-ding] Show IPA
–adjective
1.
prominent; conspicuous; striking: an outstanding example of courage.
2.
marked by superiority or distinction; excellent; distinguished: an outstanding student.
3.
continuing in existence; remaining unsettled, unpaid, etc.: outstanding debts.
4.
(of securities and the like) publicly issued and sold or in circulation.
5.
standing out; projecting: a stiff, outstanding fabric.
6.
Archaic. that resists or opposes.

I think being 1 of 12 players from a major conference to accomplish something could be described as excellent, distinguished, or marked by superiority.

 

[stoops4pres]

I like how you completely ignored the body of my post and the facts I presented so that you could hold on to your belief!! I admire your tenacity!!:ez-roll:

So, I'll ask again. Being 1 of 10 players in the country to achieve something isn't outstanding? He may not have made All American but we all know half of those spots are decided before the year begins and some are outright jokes.

The only thing that I wasn't correct on was a stat about the number of people that averaged over 14 points and over 9 rebounds a game... I thought there were a bit more then that. So because I was off on the quantity, that defines the entire argument about whether or not he was an outstanding player his freshman season? Please, I hope you're joking... You're beating your chest about a stat that you think ultimately proves him to be an outstanding player, when it doesn't. Him averaging 14 and 9, which is very good as I said, doesn't change the fact that because a stat is rare, that makes a person an "outstanding" player... No matter how much you try to spin it.

Here's the reality: Was he a great rebounder? Yes. Was he a great scorer? I don't think 14 ppg defines a great scorer by any means. He was a good scorer, but I think in order to be an "outstanding" player, I think you should average more then 14 ppg, especially when you're the 1st option on offense. In his freshman season he was ranked 32nd in rebounding, but wasn't even in the Top 100 in scoring--that's right--Top 100...... And you mean to tell me that he was an OUTSTANDING player? That tells me your view of an outstanding college player is flawed.

I'm sorry, but your stat that you feel so proud of showing doesn't do enough justice. I know you feel that because you found an outstanding STAT, that automatically qualifies as that person being an outstanding PLAYER, but that is not the case by any means, as I proved above.

 

[Cheno]

Yeah but none of those coaches recruited BG or WWIII to get us there. You can't remove the players a coach gets from how well he does. If you want to play that game I think Barnes drops really far. I think a lot of coaches wouldn't have had the early tournament exits that Self's teams had suffered from, etc... You get credit as a coach for how well your team performs whether or not you have good players. Blake may not stick around for 2 seasons without Capel, WWII may not come here and all of a sudden you have a team no better than this years. Sorry, you can't say the coach doesn't deserve credit for how his team performs in his third season.

Right but you said he deserves to be higher than 9th because of the Elite 8. I don't agree with that. Like someone pointed out Quin Snyder made an Elite 8. This league has some very good coaches. To me, and I'm a huge Capel fan, he's done the worst job of any coach in the league this year. Whether it's on Coach or the players who knows...but that is the reality of the situation. This team has top 4 talent and bottom 4 results.
And I wouldn't throw WW into that mix with Blake.

 

[gracefor24]

The only thing that I wasn't correct on was a stat about the number of people that averaged over 14 points and over 9 rebounds a game... I thought there were a bit more then that. So because I was off on the quantity, that defines the entire argument about whether or not he was an outstanding player his freshman season? Please, I hope you're joking... You're beating your chest about a stat that you think ultimately proves him to be an outstanding player, when it doesn't. Him averaging 14 and 9, which is very good as I said, doesn't change the fact that because a stat is rare, that makes a person an "outstanding" player... No matter how much you try to spin it.

Here's the reality: Was he a great rebounder? Yes. Was he a great scorer? I don't think 14 ppg defines a great scorer by any means. He was a good scorer, but I think in order to be an "outstanding" player, I think you should average more then 14 ppg, especially when you're the 1st option on offense. In his freshman season he was ranked 32nd in rebounding, but wasn't even in the Top 100 in scoring--that's right--Top 100...... And you mean to tell me that he was an OUTSTANDING player? That tells me your view of an outstanding college player is flawed.

I'm sorry, but your stat that you feel so proud of showing doesn't do enough justice. I know you feel that because you found an outstanding STAT, that automatically qualifies as that person being an outstanding PLAYER, but that is not the case by any means, as I proved above.

Again, you show a huge lack of understanding of the numbers of the college game along with comparing all the players who don't play the same level of competition. Also, you completely are lost on the point that he did them BOTH. That's the point, there may have been people who did either or better than Blake but there were only 11 other guys in major conferences who did what he did. That is elite company.

And if you don't think that accomplishing something that makes you rare as a player, especially considering he was 1st Team All Conference in one of the Top 3 conferences, qualifies as outstanding you are the one who is lacking understanding of the term.

Also, his numbers were influenced by the fact he only played 28 minutes a game. Most of the guys who were putting up bigger numbers I can almost guarantee you played more minutes.

Either way, to say he wasn't outstanding after seeing the facts of what I've shown is just pure stubbornness. At least you admitted you didn't realize he was 1 of only 12 players to put up those type of numbers.

 

[stoops4pres]

Again, you show a huge lack of understanding of the numbers of the college game along with comparing all the players who don't play the same level of competition. Also, you completely are lost on the point that he did them BOTH. That's the point, there may have been people who did either or better than Blake but there were only 11 other guys in major conferences who did what he did. That is elite company.

And if you don't think that accomplishing something that makes you rare as a player, especially considering he was 1st Team All Conference in one of the Top 3 conferences, qualifies as outstanding you are the one who is lacking understanding of the term.

Also, his numbers were influenced by the fact he only played 28 minutes a game. Most of the guys who were putting up bigger numbers I can almost guarantee you played more minutes.

Either way, to say he wasn't outstanding after seeing the facts of what I've shown is just pure stubbornness. At least you admitted you didn't realize he was 1 of only 12 players to put up those type of numbers.

This subject is above your area.

First off, I'm not lost that he averaged both 14 points and 9 rebounds a game. I've stated that, what, 100 times on this thread? That is an impressive stat that not too many have done simultaneously, there's no denying it... But what you fail to understand (and this is critical) is that just because he is great at rebounding, does not make him an OUTSTANDING player. Very good player, yes... But if he was so outstanding, why wasn't he among the Top 100 scorers? And don't give me your reaching excuse about other players in the same competition... If he was outstanding like you claim, he would be up there regardless of who the other players played against. Plenty of guys on that list played against tough competition and were proven to be better scorers. Griffin just wasn't one of them.

And your minutes case is a reach at best... Players who are outstanding who you claim Griffin belonged in the same company with his freshman year have put up more points while playing the same amount of minutes. Luke Harangody put up 20 and 10 in '07-08 and played only 29 minutes. Michael Beasley barely played more then Griffin and blew his points out of the water. Wayne Simien played only 24 minutes for the '03 KU squad and basically had the exact same stats, and he did that as the 3rd and sometimes 4th option. So you're minutes theory is paltry.

There's no stubborness going on... I admit when I am wrong. I think you need to do yourself a favor and stop being in denial. Averaging 14 and 9 is an impressive stat and proves he is very good, but that's not outstanding, as I've proven earlier. Was Damion James an "outstanding" player last season? He averaged 15 and 9 for the Horns last season, but I wouldn't call him an OUTSTANDING basketball player... I hope you wouldn't have last year, either. Its not my problem you don't grasp the difference between a very good player and an outstanding player.... If you would stop being naive in this situation and realize that a rare stat does not make you outstanding, then we can be on the same page.

 

[HoHum]

I think you guys should agree that you don't have the same definition of outstanding.:eddie187_jpg_xs: