Rank the Big XII Coaches

[Mr.B!!!]

I couldn't disagree more with that statement.

Of course you do.

 

[oSuJeff97]

Good god you'll say anything to diminish Capel, anything.

LOL.

Dude... seriously... just because you WANT to think that I do this doesn't mean that I'm actually doing it.

Please try to understand the difference between raising questions and debating ideas vs. "diminishing" someone/something.

I've been posting on this board for a while and have been pretty consistent in my praise of Capel. I really like him a lot, especially after I got a chance to hear him speak at the Iba Awards last summer.

That said, it is completely and totally valid to question where he ranks within the Big 12 coaches and to wonder wha tkind of career he will have in the post-Griffin era. That is a VALID question to bring up, especially considering the kind of year OU is having.

If you don't think it's a valid thing to talk about, and can't understand the difference between talking about these issues and "diminishing" him, then I don't know what to tell you.

You've already admitted that it takes more than one player for a team to be successful, now it is well, it wasn't any big deal to get said player, then well since you got him, other good players were sure to follow.

This is not what I've been saying at all.

I can't help it if you have a tough time following the logical flow of a conversation.

As for DSMok1's statistical analysis:

Pat Knight 2 41% -12.7%

LOL

We're the only school (and message board) that actually holds it against our Coach when we do something well with good players. When Sampson went to the Final Four, "ahh well it was just a good group of guys, and we had Hollis and Ace." When we rolled to three straight conference titles "oh but I mean guys just played well that weekend, and we had Hollis." Now when Capel goes 30-6, "well, he had Blake, it doesn't count."

I can't speak to the Ace, Hollis, etc... I don't remember questioning Sampson based on those guys...

Obviously, EVERY coach needs talent to win. I would say the difference is that Blake was SO much better than everyone else... you're talking about the second best player in the history of the program here, right?

So the question is, does Capel need to find someone who is going to rival Blake and Wayman as one of the three best players in the history of the program in order to succeed? Because that could be a pretty big recruiting challenge, even for a recruiting machine like Capel.

 

[gracefor24]

We're the only school (and message board) that actually holds it against our Coach when we do something well with good players. When Sampson went to the Final Four, "ahh well it was just a good group of guys, and we had Hollis and Ace." When we rolled to three straight conference titles "oh but I mean guys just played well that weekend, and we had Hollis." Now when Capel goes 30-6, "well, he had Blake, it doesn't count."

It's silly, embarrassing, and moronic.


Knight. And how long does Sadler and McDermont have to get to the NCAA Tournament at their present school? Infinite? Since they are at Nebraska and Iowa State, it doesn't matter if they win? So here we go again with the impossibly ridiculous holding it against coach's to coach a certain place or having a certain player.

Yeah, it's like the people who say Phil Jackson isn't a great coach because he's had great players. It may actually be more difficult to coach great players to a great team effort. Just ask Rick Barnes if it gets easier having great talent.

Capel is a good coach but I think we were all a little quick to anoint him as the next big thing. He has a lot to learn and he's learning it under a microscope at a big time school.

In this way he does remind me a little of Quin Snyder. Early success, a big time job, recruiting great talent. Then a year of underachieving and everyone starts to doubt you, not to mention off the court issues.

Let's just hope that Capel can pull things together unlike Snyder.

 

[Mr.B!!!]

In this way he does remind me a little of Quin Snyder. Early success, a big time job, recruiting great talent. Then a year of underachieving and everyone starts to doubt you, not to mention off the court issues.

Let's just hope that Capel can pull things together unlike Snyder.

Snyder had some other issues that Capel does not appear to have, not saying that the result won't be the same, but Snyder had lots of other stuff going on.

Interesting side thought, if Quinn Snyder had never coached in the Big 12, would people be so quick to be down on Capel? Bet Capel is wishing that Quinn had coached anywhere else and not been a player at Duke either.

 

[Mr.B!!!]

I can't help it if you have a tough time following the logical flow of a conversation.

You are kidding, right?

 

[campbest]

Snyder had some other issues that Capel does not appear to have

True...Capel doesn't do cocaine.

 

[gracefor24]

Snyder had some other issues that Capel does not appear to have, not saying that the result won't be the same, but Snyder had lots of other stuff going on.

Interesting side thought, if Quinn Snyder had never coached in the Big 12, would people be so quick to be down on Capel? Bet Capel is wishing that Quinn had coached anywhere else and not been a player at Duke either.

Totally agree, the analogy isn't the greatest in personal terms but what they are experiencing on the court is quite similar and their connections with players is quite similar.

 

[Mr.B!!!]

True...Capel doesn't do cocaine.

That could be part of the problem [kidding!].

Seriously thought camp, I'l ask you because I appreciate you perspective, if there had never been a Quinn Snyder to compare him to, think people would be so worried about Capel? If I am Jeff I am WORN out on that angle, real worn out...it is like some dude that went to the same high school I went to and played basketball under the same coach went to prison, and I am suddenly guilty by association.

 

[stoops4pres]

I said (or meant) I don't think Blake made a huge leap and I don't. I think he improved. But I mostly think OU was much better at getting him the ball and he was much more confident in what he could do. I don't think his game changed that much. Blake was outstanding from day one in my opinion.

If he was outstanding from day one, why did he only average 14 and 9? He wasn't as much part of the offense (i.e. shot attempts) because he was still raw. And yes, his game did greatly change. Go look back at the tape his freshman year as opposed to his sophomore year. Comparing his moves and footwork from year 1 to year 2 is night and day. His field goal percentage vastly improved as well.

Bottom line, Capel deserves a lot of credit for BG's transformation. If Capel had nothing to do with it, BG would have been an all world player from the get-go. But he wasn't. Did other individuals help BG's development? Of course. But one of the significant ones without a doubt is Capel.

 

[Romulus]

take Quin Snyder out of the mix then, compare him to Tommy Amaker

 

[DenverSooner]

If he was outstanding from day one, why did he only average 14 and 9? He wasn't as much part of the offense (i.e. shot attempts) because he was still raw. And yes, his game did greatly change. Go look back at the tape his freshman year as opposed to his sophomore year. Comparing his moves and footwork from year 1 to year 2 is night and day. His field goal percentage vastly improved as well.

Bottom line, Capel deserves a lot of credit for BG's transformation. If Capel had nothing to do with it, BG would have been an all world player from the get-go. But he wasn't. Did other individuals help BG's development? Of course. But one of the significant ones without a doubt is Capel.

Your joking right? 14 and 9 is off the chart.

Blake Griffin was all-world from day one. Capel did a great job but your not a well informed basketball fan if you don't think Blake Griffin was outstanding from day one.

I honestly, I never watched Blake Griffin's footwork. I was typically focusing on him ripping the rim off the back board.

 

[stoops4pres]

Your joking right? 14 and 9 is off the chart.

Blake Griffin was all-world from day one. Capel did a great job but your not a well informed basketball fan if you don't think Blake Griffin was outstanding from day one.

I honestly, I never watched Blake Griffin's footwork. I was typically focusing on him ripping the rim off the back board.

You're lost. Let me help you out.

14 and 9 is very good. "Off the chart?" Come on, don't fool yourself to make a false point. 22 and 14 is off the chart. If 14 and 9 were "off the chart" then that's implying that A TON of Division 1 basketball players are "off the chart". If your chart is not very high, then that's the only way you can apply BG's stat from his freshman year.

And if you only watched BG dunking, but didn't observe just how vastly he improved in areas vital to post players (i.e. moves, footwork) like some other posters on this board did, then don't question other's knowledge of basketball. That just makes you look even more clueless.

 

[oSuJeff97]

14 and 9 is very good. "Off the chart?" Come on, don't fool yourself to make a false point. 22 and 14 is off the chart.

Dude... really? "Very good...?"

14 and 9 is a "very good" average for a junior/senior post player in this league.... for a true freshman post man to put up those numbers is sick.

Craig Brackins, who is a 3-year junior starter, averages 16 and 8.

Damian James, a SENIOR, averages 17 and 10.

Blake putting up those numbers as a true freshman was incredible.

Obviously, his numbers last year were off-the-chart, first-pick-in-the-NBA-draft good.

 

[Big Old Booger]

Your joking right? 14 and 9 is off the chart.

Blake Griffin was all-world from day one. Capel did a great job but your not a well informed basketball fan if you don't think Blake Griffin was outstanding from day one.

I honestly, I never watched Blake Griffin's footwork. I was typically focusing on him ripping the rim off the back board.

I was one who ripped BG somewhat for his attitude at first, particularly the whining he did to the refs about fouls or non-fouls called. As the season went along, I recanted those statements.

The game he had vs WVa, particularly where he kept us in the game at one point with a steal and then took it to the hole for an "and 1" that was a play only a superstar could make. Dude was special his frosh year, especially when you consider he played the 2nd half of the season with a bad knee.

He was the difference in the ballclub that year. Had he not been there, we could have easily been 14-14, or worse.

 

[DenverSooner]

Dude... really? "Very good...?"

14 and 9 is a "very good" average for a junior/senior post player in this league.... for a true freshman post man to put up those numbers is sick.

Craig Brackins, who is a 3-year junior starter, averages 16 and 8.

Damian James, a SENIOR, averages 17 and 10.

Blake putting up those numbers as a true freshman was incredible.

Obviously, his numbers last year were off-the-chart, first-pick-in-the-NBA-draft good.

Thank you! 14 and 9 as a freshman is off the chart. Andrew Fitzgerald has had a nice freshman season (he got minutes, scored some points and will clearly be solid player by his junior year). Tiny Gallon has had a good freshman season.

 

[campbest]

That could be part of the problem [kidding!].

Seriously thought camp, I'l ask you because I appreciate you perspective, if there had never been a Quinn Snyder to compare him to, think people would be so worried about Capel? If I am Jeff I am WORN out on that angle, real worn out...it is like some dude that went to the same high school I went to and played basketball under the same coach went to prison, and I am suddenly guilty by association.

People probably would, we are a results "now" oriented society. They just wouldn't be dropping the Quin Snyder line...as someone else said, use Tommy Amaker instead. I am not even convinced Ernie Kent was that good of a coach when Oregon had a strong run from 2001-2003...he pretty much got lucky with some great players (Fred Jones, Luke Ridnour, Luke Jackson) and just rolled the ball out there to let them play. Kent, btw, is about to get canned.

 

[SoonerfanTU]

What alot of you don't understand is that ppg and rpg are driven as much my minutes played and shots taken, as talent.

Makes it nearly impossible to compare two guys in that regards on seperate teams in seperate years.

 

[campbest]

Worse thing to happen to Jeff Capel as a developing coach was to get BG, it made his job easier. Doesn't mean he isn't a good coach, just means with BG on the roster, he didn't need to force any type of "program identity" which a lot of teams have.

Let BG take over and pray one of our guards hit some open jumpers.

But that doesn't mean you can't discount what he did at VCU...that program right now is his foundation and their success can be directly tied to it.

 

[stoops4pres]

Dude... really? "Very good...?"

14 and 9 is a "very good" average for a junior/senior post player in this league.... for a true freshman post man to put up those numbers is sick.

Craig Brackins, who is a 3-year junior starter, averages 16 and 8.

Damian James, a SENIOR, averages 17 and 10.

Blake putting up those numbers as a true freshman was incredible.

Obviously, his numbers last year were off-the-chart, first-pick-in-the-NBA-draft good.

Read the context of the post next time. BG's numbers he posted were very good from a player standpoint. Not from a "freshman" standpoint. For a freshman, yes they are off the chart. But that's not what the argument is about. The argument is about whether or not Capel helped BG's improvement, which he did, obviously given the results from his first year to the next.

Then the argument turned into whether or not BG's 14 and 9 averages were off the charts and outstanding. Was he outstanding for a freshman? Of course. But he was not an outstanding basketball player, because 14 and 9 at the Division 1 level is not "outstanding" or "off the charts". Is it very good? Yes. But not enough to use this hyperbole on someone saying he's "outstanding and off the charts from Day 1." Again, 14 and 9 is good, but not "off the charts". Now, was he outstanding his sophomore year? Absolutely. 22 and 14 is outstanding. See the difference there? If you don't then you're beyond help.

 

[stoops4pres]

Thank you! 14 and 9 as a freshman is off the chart. Andrew Fitzgerald has had a nice freshman season (he got minutes, scored some points and will clearly be solid player by his junior year). Tiny Gallon has had a good freshman season.

Hate to break it to you but the poster failing to understand the gist of our conversation does not validate your point. You didn't specify for a freshman. You said that BG was already an outstanding player from day 1. Which he wasn't. 22 and 14 is outstanding. 14 and 9 is not. For a freshman? Yes, he was outstanding FOR A FRESHMAN. Was he an outstanding PLAYER? No, which was what I and other posters as well have been saying all along: He grew into an outstanding player thanks in large part to Capel.