Rank the Big XII Coaches

[Mr.B!!!]

Yes, but let's not act as if landing Blake Griffin, which led to landing Warren, was some huge mountain-moving effort.

Blake Griffin grew up and was living in OU's back yard... and his brother was already there as a key contributor to the team.

It's not as if Capel flew in and snached him out of California or Florida or something.

Good god you'll say anything to diminish Capel, anything. You've already admitted that it takes more than one player for a team to be successful, now it is well, it wasn't any big deal to get said player, then well since you got him, other good players were sure to follow. The sad part is, there is a group of supposed OU fans that are willing to walk right down the same black hole of flawed logic with you.

 

[aaron7]

It's a funny thing about Blake Griffin. When he was a freshman, several on here were blasting him for being lazy, having a bad attitude, not playing defense, etc. Now, all they can seem to remember is how great of a player he was. It's even been mentioned they need to build a statue of him! It's strange how much difference a year makes.

It won't shock me if the same thing happens to Tiny, Pledger, and perhaps others as well.

This is so true. He was being called an athlete only, not basketball player.

 

[DFWHoopster]

OSUJeff- I think your assessment of Drew is fair. I just took issue with the people who said he can't coach. In reference to Capel, how they finish this year will say something about him and his ability to motivate. And that may not show up as wins. Nebraska for example is playing hard despite losing many close games. Might not save Doc his job because they are below the level of what they need to compete in this league.

Capel on the other hand has the talent. The leadership and chemistry is lacking. But Baylor was a similar situation last year. In Baylor's case trading a guy who dominated the ball often to the detriment of the team concept in Jerrells for a team first hard nosed PG in Tweety Carter. And trading an athletic but soft big in Kevin Rogers for a defensive minded player like Udoh has turned Baylor's whole dynamics around. OU can experience that same thing if they get the right players in the recruiting process. But how OU finishes this year will set the tone for next year.

 

[stoops4pres]

By far?

Since inception of Big 12
Texas
Big 12 Record: 144-62 (.700)
Overall Record: 319-134 (.704)
Big 12 Regular Season Titles: 3
Big 12 Tournament Titles: 0
Elite 8's: 2
Final Four's 1
Head to Head with Oklahoma: 15-17

Oklahoma
Big 12 Record: 140-168 (.67)
Overall Record: 325-133 (.710)
Big 12 Regular Season Titles: 1
Big 12 Tournament Titles: 3
Elite 8's: 2
Final Four's: 1
Head to Head with Texas: 17-15


Clearly, that's "by far."

(sweeping statements won't be overlooked)

This is related to exactly what I was saying earlier.... It can be argued that texas was the 3rd or even 4th best program of the Big 12 from the time Barnes took over to when KS and Sutton departed. Only did those 2 depletions allow Barnes to fully claim the 2nd best spot.

And had KS not left, I'm willing to bet most of the numbers (except head to head) would be reversed in OU's favor. The difference is minimal right now, anyways.

 

[stoops4pres]

Yes, but let's not act as if landing Blake Griffin, which led to landing Warren, was some huge mountain-moving effort.

Blake Griffin grew up and was living in OU's back yard... and his brother was already there as a key contributor to the team.

It's not as if Capel flew in and snached him out of California or Florida or something.

The fact that Taylor was fixing to transfer schools, along with BG really liking Carolina, means that Capel landing Blake was actually a pretty big pick up. Bigger then what you perceive, anyways.

 

[SoonerfanTU]

The fact that Taylor was fixing to transfer schools, along with BG really liking Carolina, means that Capel landing Blake was actually a pretty big pick up. Bigger then what you perceive, anyways.

He wasn't going to NC. It was KU or OU. He did not want to be that far from home, for obvious reasons.

 

[Mr.B!!!]

The fact that Taylor was fixing to transfer schools, along with BG really liking Carolina, means that Capel landing Blake was actually a pretty big pick up. Bigger then what you perceive, anyways.

Wate of time on this guy, no matter what, it will be diminish Capel in some way....although you can get him to take some other positions pretty quick if you apply them to Ford.

 

[brettromar]

Self is number 1.

He has been to the Elite 8 with 3 different teams and won it all when he got his guys to KU.

The real question is would Tubby still be at OU if his son had not made him call OU back and tell them that he couldn't take the job after he had already accepted it.

 

[Dignon003]

Ford is doing a good job. He'll likely make the tournament again. I think one area where he does a better job than Capel is having players understand their role and stay in that capacity.

Overall caoching is tough thing to rank. I think Self is a clear # 1. After that it is a crapshoot. I like what some do on the recruiting trail, Barnes, Capel, Drew and I like how some guys get their teams to play their asses off. Martin, Ford, Anderson, Turgeon.

I think that McDermott and Pat Knight bring up the rear. There is a reason why this league is tough.

 

[DSMok1]

I thought I'd look at this from a statistical perspective.

How do you measure coaches? I would compare the coach's success to the historical success at the school. Did the win more or less?

So I looked at each coach's winning percentage compared to the 30-year average at each D1 school they have coached. Here are the results (NOT INCLUDING THIS YEAR):

Coach		Years	Win%	Value:
Frank Martin	2	64%	9.3%
Jeff Bzdelik	6	52%	8.9%
Mark Turgeon	11	59%	8.1%
Rick Barnes	22	66%	8.0%
Doc Sadler	5	64%	5.3%
Travis Ford	12	55%	4.2%
Bill Self	16	72%	4.1%
Mike Anderson	7	67%	3.7%
Greg McDermott	15	60%	3.2%
Scott Drew	7	49%	2.4%
Jeff Capel III	7	67%	1.6%
Pat Knight	2	41%	-12.7%

Who has out-performed expectations? Who were special cases? Self is a special case at Kansas; he is following a legend who skews the 30-year average very high. Scott Drew started from nothing at Baylor--he is much, much higher if you look at the program after he got it rolling.

Here's how I would rank the coaches:
1. Rick Barnes (Consistent winner)
2. Bill Self (Competing for titles)
3. Mark Turgeon (Consistently solid)
4. Scott Drew (Building a winner)
5. Scott Bzdelik (Wins a lot)
6. Frank Martin (Small sample size, though)
7. Mike Anderson (Solid Winner)
8. Travis Ford (Solid Winner)
9. Jeff Capel (Winner)
10. Doc Sadler (Winner)
11. Greg McDermott (Solid)
12. Pat Knight (Not solid)

 

[Big Old Booger]

I thought I'd look at this from a statistical perspective.

How do you measure coaches? I would compare the coach's success to the historical success at the school. Did the win more or less?

So I looked at each coach's winning percentage compared to the 30-year average at each D1 school they have coached. Here are the results (NOT INCLUDING THIS YEAR):

Coach		Years	Win%	Value:
Frank Martin	2	64%	9.3%
Jeff Bzdelik	6	52%	8.9%
Mark Turgeon	11	59%	8.1%
Rick Barnes	22	66%	8.0%
Doc Sadler	5	64%	5.3%
Travis Ford	12	55%	4.2%
Bill Self	16	72%	4.1%
Mike Anderson	7	67%	3.7%
Greg McDermott	15	60%	3.2%
Scott Drew	7	49%	2.4%
Jeff Capel III	7	67%	1.6%
Pat Knight	2	41%	-12.7%

Who has out-performed expectations? Who were special cases? Self is a special case at Kansas; he is following a legend who skews the 30-year average very high. Scott Drew started from nothing at Baylor--he is much, much higher if you look at the program after he got it rolling.

Here's how I would rank the coaches:
1. Rick Barnes (Consistent winner)
2. Bill Self (Competing for titles)
3. Mark Turgeon (Consistently solid)
4. Scott Drew (Building a winner)
5. Scott Bzdelik (Wins a lot)
6. Frank Martin (Small sample size, though)
7. Mike Anderson (Solid Winner)
8. Travis Ford (Solid Winner)
9. Jeff Capel (Winner)
10. Doc Sadler (Winner)
11. Greg McDermott (Solid)
12. Pat Knight (Not solid)

People put McDermott and Knight at the bottom and both of them are better X's and O's coaches than Capel. The problem is, they can't recruit like Capel...maybe that's due to location (Ames and Lubbock), maybe not. I'd bet if either had the talent OU has this year, they both would have a better record than Capel to this point.

Having said that, here's my rank:

1.) Bill Self
2.) Rick Barnes
3.) Frank Martin -- inexperienced but a heck of a coach and getting better.
4.) Mike Anderson -- May actually be 3rd, but I like Martin better.
5.) Mark Turgeon -- better than I expected; he's a weasel though.
6.) Jeff Bzdelik -- Anyone who can win in Boulder needs to be recognized; don't forget his days at AFA who was a perennial loser before he was there.
7.) Travis Ford -- Very solid coach.
8.) Doc Sadler -- Doc has done a great job in Lincoln given the situation he inherited. He is a solid coach and his teams play stout defense. He would be a stud at a decent basketball program.
9.) Greg McDermott -- Consistent winner in the MV conference. Can't seem to recruit to Ames and has had bad luck with players leaving (2 -- 1 at Syracuse and 1 who went back to Germany to play pro ball).
10.) Scott Drew -- Good recruiter...questionable bench coach; a lot like Capel.
11.) Pat Knight -- Knows the X's and O's; like Sadler would be a stud at a decent program.
12.) Jeff Capel -- Good, maybe great recruiter. Players he recruits seem to have "agendas" and don't buy into team (WW, Gallon, TMG, etc.). He did sign Hardrick, Willis and Allen which makes me question if he's really that great of a recruiter. Has wasted a ton of scholarships on players who don't stick around -- Early, Neysmith, Patillo, etc.

 

[stoops4pres]

He wasn't going to NC. It was KU or OU. He did not want to be that far from home, for obvious reasons.

I never said he was going to Carolina. I said he really liked Carolina. That doesn't mean he wouldn't have gone elsewhere. But when Blake started coming on strong in the national scene, and Taylor wasn't sold on Capel because they had just gotten acquainted, Blake was feeling Carolina.

And that's coming from Taylor himself. Not to mention, one of Blake's friends from OCS told me this also. Neither of us 2 asked about KU because we didn't normally talk about that stuff. But both brothers mentioned Carolina as the primary school.

 

[luckyc1423]

People put McDermott and Knight at the bottom and both of them are better X's and O's coaches than Capel. The problem is, they can't recruit like Capel...maybe that's due to location (Ames and Lubbock), maybe not. I'd bet if either had the talent OU has this year, they both would have a better record than Capel to this point.

Having said that, here's my rank:

1.) Bill Self
2.) Rick Barnes
3.) Frank Martin -- inexperienced but a heck of a coach and getting better.
4.) Mike Anderson -- May actually be 3rd, but I like Martin better.
5.) Mark Turgeon -- better than I expected; he's a weasel though.
6.) Jeff Bzdelik -- Anyone who can win in Boulder needs to be recognized; don't forget his days at AFA who was a perennial loser before he was there.
7.) Travis Ford -- Very solid coach.
8.) Doc Sadler -- Doc has done a great job in Lincoln given the situation he inherited. He is a solid coach and his teams play stout defense. He would be a stud at a decent basketball program.
9.) Greg McDermott -- Consistent winner in the MV conference. Can't seem to recruit to Ames and has had bad luck with players leaving (2 -- 1 at Syracuse and 1 who went back to Germany to play pro ball).
10.) Scott Drew -- Good recruiter...questionable bench coach; a lot like Capel.
11.) Pat Knight -- Knows the X's and O's; like Sadler would be a stud at a decent program.
12.) Jeff Capel -- Good, maybe great recruiter. Players he recruits seem to have "agendas" and don't buy into team (WW, Gallon, TMG, etc.). He did sign Hardrick, Willis and Allen which makes me question if he's really that great of a recruiter. Has wasted a ton of scholarships on players who don't stick around -- Early, Neysmith, Patillo, etc.

No way coach capel is the worst coach in the big 12...I am frustrated just as the next at him but he is not the worst coach...
I think as tough as it is to say that this may have been a good year for capel to learn and grow as a coach...I look for capel to review this year and see what he can do better as a coach. Maybe he attends some defensive clinics...but whatever he does I think he comes back next year with more knowledge and more drive

 

[playmakr]

People put McDermott and Knight at the bottom and both of them are better X's and O's coaches than Capel. The problem is, they can't recruit like Capel...maybe that's due to location (Ames and Lubbock), maybe not. I'd bet if either had the talent OU has this year, they both would have a better record than Capel to this point.

Having said that, here's my rank:

1.) Bill Self
2.) Rick Barnes
3.) Frank Martin -- inexperienced but a heck of a coach and getting better.
4.) Mike Anderson -- May actually be 3rd, but I like Martin better.
5.) Mark Turgeon -- better than I expected; he's a weasel though.
6.) Jeff Bzdelik -- Anyone who can win in Boulder needs to be recognized; don't forget his days at AFA who was a perennial loser before he was there.
7.) Travis Ford -- Very solid coach.
8.) Doc Sadler -- Doc has done a great job in Lincoln given the situation he inherited. He is a solid coach and his teams play stout defense. He would be a stud at a decent basketball program.
9.) Greg McDermott -- Consistent winner in the MV conference. Can't seem to recruit to Ames and has had bad luck with players leaving (2 -- 1 at Syracuse and 1 who went back to Germany to play pro ball).
10.) Scott Drew -- Good recruiter...questionable bench coach; a lot like Capel.
11.) Pat Knight -- Knows the X's and O's; like Sadler would be a stud at a decent program.
12.) Jeff Capel -- Good, maybe great recruiter. Players he recruits seem to have "agendas" and don't buy into team (WW, Gallon, TMG, etc.). He did sign Hardrick, Willis and Allen which makes me question if he's really that great of a recruiter. Has wasted a ton of scholarships on players who don't stick around -- Early, Neysmith, Patillo, etc.

You've got guys ahead of Capel on your list that haven't even been to an NCAA Tournament game. "Well he had Blake" doesn't work for me, so don't start.

 

[InTheKnow]

It would be interesting to see some statistics rank a team by talent/depth at all positions. Then, the team's performance using that as a criteria.

For example, Self having solid talent and depth at every position would actually show his performance to be as it should be. Self would essentially be average because he should be performing at that level.

Essentially, I'm more interested in what a coach is able to do with the players he has - rather than just looking at wins/losses in isolation. Obviously, this method would reduce the weight of recruiting, but it would provide additional perspective.

As another example, Ford's only two big men last season were Moses and Brown. IMO, Brown wasn't even a D-1 talent. Still, Ford was able to take the team to the second round of the Dance. IMO, Ford coached beyond reasonable expectations last season.

Since I don't have the above stats to look at, this is how I would rank them.

1) Self

2) Barnes

3) Anderson
3) Martin

5) Ford
5) Turgeon

7) Capel
7) Drew
7) Bzdelik

10) Sadler
10) Knight
10) McDermott

 

[DenverSooner]

There were plenty of people who criticized Blake during his freshman year. Just because you might not have been one of them doesn't mean it didn't happen.

I don't recall it. I am not saying it didn't happen. What I recall is some people having unrealistic expectations and some of us saying give the guy a chance. However, he pretty much met and exceeded those unrealistic expectations. As a freshman Blake averaged over 14 points and over 9 boards a game. I did not see Big XII only stats but I would assume they were higher simply because he was a freshman and improved throughout the year. (I could be wrong on that assumption because 14 and 9 is awfully good.)

 

[152219]

I don't recall it. I am not saying it didn't happen. What I recall is some people having unrealistic expectations and some of us saying give the guy a chance. However, he pretty much met and exceeded those unrealistic expectations. As a freshman Blake averaged over 14 points and over 9 boards a game. I did not see Big XII only stats but I would assume they were higher simply because he was a freshman and improved throughout the year. (I could be wrong on that assumption because 14 and 9 is awfully good.)

There were plenty of discussions about his attitude...what appeared to be him pouting or sulking, not giving 100% effort, etc. It happened.

 

[playmakr]

There were plenty of people who criticized Blake during his freshman year. Just because you might not have been one of them doesn't mean it didn't happen.

Undoubtedly.

 

[stoops4pres]

There were plenty of discussions about his attitude...what appeared to be him pouting or sulking, not giving 100% effort, etc. It happened.

I remember this on the OUInsider boards, as well.

And shouldn't Capel be getting credit for the development of Blake? All these posters are saying, "Well Capel had Griffin, anyone could have done that." What many people fail to realize is how much better Griffin became his 2nd year. He was a good player his freshman season, but completely transformed his game onto another level. The guy had a complete leap to becoming the best power forward this decade, I think Capel deserves a lot of credit for that development.

 

[SoonerNorm]

I remember this on the OUInsider boards, as well.

And shouldn't Capel be getting credit for the development of Blake? All these posters are saying, "Well Capel had Griffin, anyone could have done that." What many people fail to realize is how much better Griffin became his 2nd year. He was a good player his freshman season, but completely transformed his game onto another level. The guy had a complete leap to becoming the best power forward this decade, I think Capel deserves a lot of credit for that development.

+1. Great post.