Big 12 Tournament Discussion Thread

[MrAnderson]

Wednesday lines:

OSU -5 over ISU
TCU -1.5 over K-STATE

I'd take the favorite in both games I think.

 

[Hollisp]

Agreed ISUs season is over.

TCU is just better than KSU.

 

[pnkranger]

OSU is 7-3 in their last 10. Take OSU in that one.

 

[stormspencer]

The Thursday early game (Tech/Texas) is intriguing to me. It very well may be a play-in game to get into the tournament. It definitely will be for Texas and I'm not sure Tech is as safe as everyone thinks either.

 

[skyvue]

The Thursday early game (Tech/Texas) is intriguing to me. It very well may be a play-in game to get into the tournament. It definitely will be for Texas and I'm not sure Tech is as safe as everyone thinks either.

Tech was ranked until, what, a week or two ago? I know that doesn't directly impact their chances of making the tourney, but it reflects the general attitude toward them, I think, and given that they went to the title game last season, it's hard for me to imagine them not getting a berth.

It would certainly have to be viewed as a major failure on Beard's part if they didn't.

 

[stormspencer]

Tech was ranked until, what, a week or two ago? I know that doesn't directly impact their chances of making the tourney, but it reflects the general attitude toward them, I think, and given that they went to the title game last season, it's hard for me to imagine them not getting a berth.

It would certainly have to be viewed as a major failure on Beard's part if they didn't.

Tech is an interesting case. They have a very high NET ranking (#22), yet they only have (3) Q-1 wins and are just 7-13 against Q-1/Q-2 teams. Their non-conference SOS is fairly lousy (#183) because they played (8) Q-4 games. I just don't believe they are a sure-fire lock that some presume them to be. I really wouldn't know where to seed them. As a comparison, OU has by far a better resume, but our NET ranking is much lower.

I've seen Tech in some projected brackets as high as an 8 seed, while some notable bracketologists (Jerry Palm in particular) actually have them out of the field as of now.

 

[thebigabd]

I think it kinda sucks the apparent bias you see in a lot of these rankings and analysis... I would rather reward a good mid-major for a great season than have some 18-14 team sneak into the tournament.

Tulsa is 21-10 and won the American regular season.
LA Tech is 22-8
Northern Iowa is 25-6
Richmond is 24-7

There are other examples, but it sucks that teams that don't perform to par on their level get in over teams who had great seasons.

Those are more interesting teams to me than an 18-14 Texas Tech team that has lost 5 games in a row. I would just say Tech is out, Northern Iowa in, period. Sorry Tech, you can't lose 15 games and get in.

 

[MrAnderson]

I think it kinda sucks the apparent bias you see in a lot of these rankings and analysis... I would rather reward a good mid-major for a great season than have some 18-14 team sneak into the tournament.

Tulsa is 21-10 and won the American regular season.
LA Tech is 22-8
Northern Iowa is 25-6
Richmond is 24-7

There are other examples, but it sucks that teams that don't perform to par on their level get in over teams who had great seasons.

Those are more interesting teams to me than an 18-14 Texas Tech team that has lost 5 games in a row. I would just say Tech is out, Northern Iowa in, period. Sorry Tech, you can't lose 15 games and get in.

I agree. Maybe there should be some automatic threshold. Like if you win 20 games in a power conference you're in. Win 25 in a mid major, you're in.

That would probably cause a lot of issues with cupcake scheduling in the non-conference though.

 

[BoulderSooner]

I think it kinda sucks the apparent bias you see in a lot of these rankings and analysis... I would rather reward a good mid-major for a great season than have some 18-14 team sneak into the tournament.

Tulsa is 21-10 and won the American regular season.
LA Tech is 22-8
Northern Iowa is 25-6
Richmond is 24-7

There are other examples, but it sucks that teams that don't perform to par on their level get in over teams who had great seasons.

Those are more interesting teams to me than an 18-14 Texas Tech team that has lost 5 games in a row. I would just say Tech is out, Northern Iowa in, period. Sorry Tech, you can't lose 15 games and get in.

tech is a lot better than northern iowa ..

the valley could make their conf tourney format any whay they want see the wcc with the top 2 seeds getting double buys

or not have a conf tourney

but the best teams should be the ones getting in

 

[BCSooners]

I think it kinda sucks the apparent bias you see in a lot of these rankings and analysis... I would rather reward a good mid-major for a great season than have some 18-14 team sneak into the tournament.

Tulsa is 21-10 and won the American regular season.
LA Tech is 22-8
Northern Iowa is 25-6
Richmond is 24-7

There are other examples, but it sucks that teams that don't perform to par on their level get in over teams who had great seasons.

Those are more interesting teams to me than an 18-14 Texas Tech team that has lost 5 games in a row. I would just say Tech is out, Northern Iowa in, period. Sorry Tech, you can't lose 15 games and get in.

I can agree with Richmond, but disagree on the other 3. Maybe if Tulsa makes the finals of their tournament.

If you're in a conference like LA Tech & Northern Iowa you got to beef up your non-con. It's a little easier to do that now with SOS and Quandrant win/loss coming into play. Bigger schools are scheduling those teams more to keep away from Q3 & Q4.

 

[Sooner04]

I'm not sure why the Valley always seems to be fighting an uphill battle. That's a good basketball league. The committee jerked WSU around several times. I watched the really good Loyola team win the league and I thought they were dynamite. I didn't think they were a Final 4 team, but when they were posted as an 11 I quickly moved them on to the round of 32.

I think this new system rewards mediocrity. At some point you have to win some games, right? How much of K-State's ranking is a credit to playing tough Big 12 competition? Got to eventually win a game or two, at least in my world.

 

[WTSooner]

I think this new system rewards mediocrity. At some point you have to win some games, right? How much of K-State's ranking is a credit to playing tough Big 12 competition? Got to eventually win a game or two, at least in my world.

Bingo!

 

[Swans]

It’s past time to have separate tournaments for majors and mid majors. And both would be exciting.

 

[BoulderSooner]

I'm not sure why the Valley always seems to be fighting an uphill battle. That's a good basketball league. The committee jerked WSU around several times. I watched the really good Loyola team win the league and I thought they were dynamite. I didn't think they were a Final 4 team, but when they were posted as an 11 I quickly moved them on to the round of 32.

I think this new system rewards mediocrity. At some point you have to win some games, right? How much of K-State's ranking is a credit to playing tough Big 12 competition? Got to eventually win a game or two, at least in my world.

thier non con SOS is 132

 

[stormspencer]

I think it kinda sucks the apparent bias you see in a lot of these rankings and analysis... I would rather reward a good mid-major for a great season than have some 18-14 team sneak into the tournament.

Tulsa is 21-10 and won the American regular season.
LA Tech is 22-8
Northern Iowa is 25-6
Richmond is 24-7

There are other examples, but it sucks that teams that don't perform to par on their level get in over teams who had great seasons.

Those are more interesting teams to me than an 18-14 Texas Tech team that has lost 5 games in a row. I would just say Tech is out, Northern Iowa in, period. Sorry Tech, you can't lose 15 games and get in.

I don't necessarily disagree with your premise, but look at it from this angle. If any of those above teams you listed had played Tech's schedule, I find it highly unlikely their record would be as good as Tech's. Conversely, if Tech played Tulsa or Northern Iowa's schedule, then Tech would have won well over 20 games.

Tulsa isn't the best example, but I would have no problem if UNI and/or Richmond made it over teams like NC State or Stanford this year. Most of us like the little guy, but I don't know if more "mid-major" teams equates into a better tournament. After the automatic qualifiers, I just want the best teams....no matter what conference they come from.

 

[152219]

I'm not sure why the Valley always seems to be fighting an uphill battle. That's a good basketball league. The committee jerked WSU around several times. I watched the really good Loyola team win the league and I thought they were dynamite. I didn't think they were a Final 4 team, but when they were posted as an 11 I quickly moved them on to the round of 32.

I think this new system rewards mediocrity. At some point you have to win some games, right? How much of K-State's ranking is a credit to playing tough Big 12 competition? Got to eventually win a game or two, at least in my world.

How is this system any more rewarding to major programs? Once the field expanded to 64 teams there has been at least 1 and usually multiple teams from major conferences who got into the tournament with "mediocre" overall records. This isn't a new event that started when the field expanded to 68 teams.

 

[152219]

This story is from 2017 and a few recent teams have made it with 14 losses including OU 2 years ago since this article was written.
https://www.ncaa.com/news/basketbal...-basketball-teams-make-ncaa-tournament-double

But look at all the teams from major conferences who received bids with 14 losses before the field expanded to 64. It was rare but it still happened.

 

[MrAnderson]

It’s past time to have separate tournaments for majors and mid majors. And both would be exciting.

Would the mid major tournament include teams like Gonzaga, SDSU, Dayton? All projected top 2 seeds this year

 

[cowboysooner]

Haven't been in years. But, my dad and I used to go to the tournament all the time. Loved it. Last one I went to was in Dallas -- so years ago.

One time my dad and I went to the midnight madness event (or whatever it was called) to start the season. Dad won the grand prize which was a trip to the tourney for two. We got all session tickets and I think OU paid for a hotel.

In any event, we get there and the tickets were up against the rafters (in the old place). Well, my dad was elderly and could barely get up there. Then and consistent with Dad (you have to know him), he wouldn't miss a minute. During the last semi his eyes turned blood red. It turns out he was straining so hard to see the play he burst blood vessels in his eyes.

Notwithstanding the above, we always had a blast. Typically, we would go on Thursday and go to the stadium when the first or second game ended in the morning session. The fans of the losing teams would all be out selling their tickets to the remainder of the tourney. You could really get a good deal. Probably still works that way.

 

[thebigabd]

tech is a lot better than northern iowa ..

How do you know?

I think this new system rewards mediocrity. At some point you have to win some games, right? How much of K-State's ranking is a credit to playing tough Big 12 competition? Got to eventually win a game or two, at least in my world.

Exactly... Texas Tech losing to every good team they played shouldn't be rewarded with an NCAA Tournament bid.

If any of those above teams you listed had played Tech's schedule, I find it highly unlikely their record would be as good as Tech's. Conversely, if Tech played Tulsa or Northern Iowa's schedule, then Tech would have won well over 20 games.

Maybe, maybe not. But Northern Iowa won 25 games and only lost 6. Texas Tech is barely .500. That should matter.

Most of us like the little guy, but I don't know if more "mid-major" teams equates into a better tournament. After the automatic qualifiers, I just want the best teams....no matter what conference they come from.

Texas Tech, being our case study here, did nothing to prove they are better than Richmond or LA Tech.

They won 18 games. here are 13 of those:

Eastern Illinois
Bethune Cookman
Houston Baptist
Tennessee State
Southern Miss (by 5)
Long Island University
CSU Bakersfield
UT Rio Grande Valley
Oklahoma State
Kansas State
Kansas State
Iowa State
Iowa State

That is 75% of their wins.

It's pure mediocrity.

I agree. Maybe there should be some automatic threshold. Like if you win 20 games in a power conference you're in. Win 25 in a mid major, you're in.

College football has a minimum win threshold. You can't go to a bowl unless you win 6 games. College basketball has no minimum win or maximum loss threshold. Nobody is like, "well, Kansas only 3 games last year, but they played a lot of great teams! They should get to play in the John Deere Iowa Bowl!"... But that logic is applied in college basketball.

There is a solution here, but in my opinion it only widens the gap between mid-majors and high-majors to reward teams that clearly didn't have a good season just because of their league. I think at minimum, consideration should be given to "tournament worthiness"... If you are in that Texas Tech situation, and a lot of teams are, it should heavily weigh against you in comparison to a 25 win mid-major team. I would look at things like experience, etc as well. And if you don't think that is fair, don't be in that position.

Would any of you really think it would be injustice for 18-14 teams to get excluded over a good, experienced, senior-laden mid-major? They made a tournament for 18-14 teams... its called the NIT.

I guarantee you San Diego State would rather play an 18-15 Texas Tech team over a 25-7 Richmond team. It's not just the record either... A lot of times those good mid-major teams are veteran, older teams with good skill. We see it every year in March.

Richmond Starting Lineup (with 3 all conference players)
G- Blake Francis (redshirt junior)
G- Nick Sherod (redshirt junior)
G- Jacob Gilyard (junior)
F- Nathan Cayo (junior)
F- Grant Golden (redshirt junior)

LA Tech Starting Lineup
G- Daquon Bracey (senior)
G- Amorie Archibald (junior)
G- Derric Jean (redshirt senior)
G- Kalob Ledoux (redshirt junior)
F- Muhammed Mubarek (senior)

Teams don't like playing teams like this in a tournament setting as a higher seed... They like playing average-at-best, young, inexperienced teams like Texas Tech. Why? Because Tech is no good.