I don't know what to think anymore on this program

[Sam]

I've always been a very optimistic person when it comes to Sooner basketball. Even last year as upsetting as the season was I did my best to keep an upbeat outlook on it. Hoping that TJ Taylor and Cameron Clark would both provide a big impact as freshman and that TMG and Tiny would figure it out on and off the court.

Even this year with all the new faces I figured the best once again. I was drinking the kool-aid heavily by the time September rolled around and I was ready for hoops. I didn't expect a NCAA tournament type team, heck even in the best of fantasies I knew the NIT would be a best case scenario if the dominoes fell just right.

Perhaps it was delusion of grandeur as I expected too much of the newcomers. Especially as my "dream NIT scenario" hinged on the amazing performance of two true freshman. In our few true post players playing over their heads 30+ nights this season and giving quality rebounding and what not. A defined offensive system that maximizes our chances in the half court. etc, etc, etc.

Through 7 games my hopes for a NIT push seemed dash as many of the keys I assumed that would be there seem to have little chance of happening. I guess Cam and Cal could shock me and start to play consistently over their age but at this point I think they're going be typical true freshman with some big ups but at times hit the freshman wall.

Going into this season I was convinced that no matter how bad it was Capel would get another season and it would be a good thing that he would. This was based on showing some good coaching this year, pulling off the occasional reasonable upset (i.e. beating a down Arkansas team on the road), not losing any game we shouldn't (i.e. Chamindae).

Given that last year was a big learning experience for Capel, I optimistically figured this is the year we would see the fruit of those lessons. Capel molds this team in his image (guess this might be true in a bad way) and grind out a nice little season to use as a leaping board for next season.

The core is there for next year on paper with the talent.

With the backcourt anchored with battle tested versions of Calvin Newell and Cameron Clark.

Then the influx of big talent in Romero Osby and Robert Goff.

With experienced players like Thompson, Washington, Blair, Pledger and Fitzgerald providing further depth and valuable experience I figured this team had the makings of a tournament team.

Now with the way this season has gone I wonder even with a year and a talent upgrade in the front court if that is enough with Capel at the helm.

I've tried to ignore all the Capel criticism based around Blake Griffin but as I watch Blake take the league by storm and OU basketball still floundering its hard to not follow that logic for me.

I'm not really sure what I'm trying to say with this rambling rant. I guess that my faith on Capel is on its last legs. I hope my outlook changes, I hope my lack of faith is proven wrong but at this point its hard to see any other outcome.

With that said, at this point in the season all I know is there's 13 home games left and much as I worry about the future of the program with Capel at the helm, I'll be there at all of them. Cheering on this team cuz I'm a "sap" like that.

/sopabox over

 

[Crocker's Long Sleeves]

Great post, I think you share the same feelings that most Sooner fans feel.

I have been an OU fan my entire life and grew up in the Sampson era. I don't expect this program to compete for national championships every year, we are not Duke, Carolina etc. We should be around the top of the Big 12 every year though and field a competetive team. There is no excuse for this program to be fighting the likes of Nebraska and Colorado for last place in the conference.

I dont think that Capel can get us out of the mess that he has gotten us in. We dont have an identity as a team since he has been here unless you count giving the ball to Blake and let him everything run through him. Blake pretty much fell in our laps, he was a local kid and his brother was already on the team. We see just how good he is now that he is dominating in the NBA. Unless Capel can get a guy like Blake on his team every year I dont see how he can get us back to where we were. His only two successful years came with Blake here and the rest he has had a losing record, and this year could be his worst yet.

It seems that we are stuck with Capel for the forseeable future and the future doesn't look very bright. Hopefully Capel can get this turned around and prove me wrong, but unless he has another number one pick on his team I don't think he can do it.

 

[Mr.B!!!]

Optimistic people are always going to be that way, so why apologize for it? If anything, that optimism is need now more than ever, especially from the administrators of IMHO the best run OU athletics message board out there. You are 100% correct that last year stunk, but you are also absolutely correct that there is a core group of guys that are on the team or committed to coming to the team that are talented. To this point in the season, the ONLY thing that is a black-eye or wasn't expected was losing to Chaminade, which was disgraceful, but is now done and over with.

As far as the Blake argument, OF COURSE he helped Capel look good. Just like NBA level players have helped guys like Self, Calhoun, Petino, Calipari, Williams, Coach K., Izzo and Howland look good for years. The TRUE reason last season sucked is becuase we had three guys with NBA physical talent that either would not or did not take to being coached (and other issues too numerous to mention). Is some of that on Capel? Sure, he recruited them...but that is the lesson that he had to learn. Recruit coachable guys with talent...which we seem to have now (and which you mentioned above).

I guess the point is this, Capel will be here this season, why not support him and the team and be optimistic. It's not like anyone thought we'd beat Arkansas on the road, so not sure why that gets the "get rid of Capel" or "Capel can't coach" stuff started up again. Honestly, I'm just excited to see guys play hard and work together...keep that up and wins will come and maybe that will get back to being the identity of the program. Did I hate seeing Fitz not finish at least three easy putbacks/lay-ups? Yep. But I also appreciated his hustle in getting those balls. Do I cringe every time Thompson thinks that he is Magic Johnson or something and gets stripped? Yep. But I also appreciate that he is tougher on the boards than was expected.

Bottom line, teams lose games, sometimes to teams they should easily beat (and even "Team Blake" has a home loss to Stephen F. Austin on his resume)...it has happened to us, hopefully it will happen for us at some point this season as well. That said, I'm optimistic that OU will keep playing hard even when out-talented, but also optimistic that the talent we do have out there will take on greater and greater roles as the season progresses. I'm also optimistic that Osby is chomping at the bit to get out on the floor and help his teammates next season, and I'm also optimistic that Goff will be a huge help at a position of need.

"If" Capel is still the coach (I'm almost 100% sure that he will be) and can't win at least 20 games with the following ten guys next season, then I'll admit that he sucks as a coach:

PF: Goff (Jr.)
PF: Osby (Jr.)
PF: Fitzgerald (Jr.)
PF: Thompson (Sr.)
SF: Clark (So.)
SF: Neal (So.)
SF/SG: Pledger (Jr.)
SF/SG: Taylor (RFR)
PG/CG: Newell (So.)
[INSERT BEST JUCO PG AVAILABLE HERE...who I hope we are recruiting as we speak, any more PG's in the White family?]

 

[chewy75]

The simple fact is there is a thing called talent and this team does not have it.

 

[ouboomer]

My expectations for this season are already being meant. The effort is not the issue, its that OU does not have many options on offense. There is no superstar freshman that makes them a better basketball team right away, OU is undersized (understatement of the season), and again Capel is looking for a Point Guard that can run this team well from day 1 (except Austin Johnson) Knowning those things coming in i was ready for a 3-4 type of start. Just have to keep faith that this team will continue to fight and get better in the next couple of months, and that at the end of the year all the young players return and Osby, Goff, and Taylor are as good as advertised.

 

[seniorsooner]

I guess I'm just wondering how optimistic we're supposed to be that Capel can take a team that could very possibly win less than 10 games this season and turn them into a 20+ win team next season, even with the addition of 3-4 new players. While I am optimistic that Osby and Goff can make a difference, they are not going to step on the floor and immediately be all-conference performers. From the way things are looking that's what Capel is going to need to save his job.

 

[Edmond_Sooner]

This team lacking talent was no secret to anyone in the nation, much less us fans (except the ones that tried to make late signee juco's all-world)...

I have been as positive as anyone on this board the past couple of years until the Chaminade loss, but i like Sam started really evaluating why i was defending him and some of the rationalizations of the Blake era and lack of a system/identity really started to bother me....

We are 7 games into the season and there is still no consistent rotation except for the fact we know Cade is going to play a lot of minutes as well as Fitz...our guard rotation is head scratching at best...I know a lot of teams with talent like ours will take some time to find the right rotation, but i havent seen anything that tells me Capel even has a clue who he can trust...i'm not sure if that tells me Capel is incompetent or the players are all just that bad...

Last night for example, on defense we got blown by all night and the only success we ever had was in a zone where we created 3 or 4 consecutive turnovers in the second half...he only went into the zone when Clarke was out and when he came back in they went back into man...i know Clarke is a solid shooter, but if i as a coach see that i can create some inconsistency in their offense by using a zone i am going to continue building on that success...has anyone ever heard of "always know where the shooter is?"...just was a weird deal to me when you could see they finally started to get some good pressure on defense...

This has been the picture i've seen of this team all year minus the Kentucky game...even the 3 wins in the preseason i wasnt impressed with the level of intensity on defense...i just dont understand how he accepts weak ball pressure and the lack of overplaying the passing lanes...also not stepping in the lane when guys drive, all of this just seems to be basketball 101 to me...

I really think these kids are playing hard and doing what they are coached too, which is very frightening...not saying another coach would come in and make them a great team, they just could execute a lot better on both ends...mostly the defensive end...

 

[thebigabd]

I've tried to ignore all the Capel criticism based around Blake Griffin but as I watch Blake take the league by storm and OU basketball still floundering its hard to not follow that logic for me.

This is the biggie for me as well... When I see Blake Griffin putting up 25, 35, and 45 points to go along with 10, 15, and 20 rebounds all the time against the best players in the world as a ROOKIE, it makes me think more and more that it was fluke that OU was good. Well, not a fluke, but fools gold for the program.

How could you not think that? The guy's record without one of the best players in the world on his team is already under .500, and will continue to get worse because of this season.

Under Sampson this program was almost always a sure bet to finish in the top 4 of the league. Nobody liked playing OU under Sampson. We were tough, we beat people up, we were talented, we rebounded very well, we defended very well, etc. The coaching was obvious.

I mean, Sampson would never go 8-20 over a 28 game stretch. How many coaches at good basketball schools (and OU has been voted a top 20 program) would tolerate that kind of thing? I honestly can't imagine any coach surviving a two year stretch like this. You can't rebuild starting in your 6th year.

 

[seniorsooner]

You can't rebuild starting in your 6th year.

Amen.

 

[OUHoops]

Some really, really good posts in this thread guys. Here's my worthless two cents...

I came into this season with the impression that Capel would get this year and next year to right the ship.

Before the season I predicted 10-12 wins, and I was fine with 10-12 wins as long as the team played hard and improved from the season opener up until the last game.

Obviously, there's still time for that to happen, but Capel has coached this team for two and half months and right now they look like a jumbled mess. The multiple starting rotations, guys starting and going to the bench five minutes into the game and not coming back for a long period of time, the Pledger point guard episode, and just some other flat-out bizarre substitution patterns.

You would've thought that by now a rotation would be somewhat established and guys would start to feel comfortable in their roles, but that's clearly not the case. Fortunately for Capel, I think Joe C. gives him this year to figure it out and then it's NCAA or bust next year.

But, like sam posted above, I'm having serious doubts as to whether Capel can get the job done next year, and if they should just go ahead and make a change after this season IF they can bring in an established coach. Obviously, though, that's a big IF and may not even be possible with the Gallon stuff and the cloud of possible sanctions hanging over the program. That's why I think you will definitely see Capel get another year regardless of how bad this year goes.

I hope though that I'm wrong and that Capel can turn this thing around, because he seems like a nice guy. But he's also a nice guy who's on the verge of finishing last and that shouldn't fly around here for very long.

 

[soonermcd93]

And for the life of me...I don't see how he cannot recruit a point guard to this program. We finally landed TMG but that blew up because he was a knucklehead and I don't buy that they didn't know that when they recruited him. Maybe they thought he would change, but you would think we would have 2 or 3 capable PGs.

 

[SuperHoops]

Everything was going along just fine then someone had to start up the "Capelables" and the whole program has gone to crap since then.

 

[Romulus]

Everything was going along just fine then someone had to start up the "Capelables" and the whole program has gone to crap since then.

It's time to start the UnCapelables

 

[NickZepp]

This is the biggie for me as well... When I see Blake Griffin putting up 25, 35, and 45 points to go along with 10, 15, and 20 rebounds all the time against the best players in the world as a ROOKIE, it makes me think more and more that it was fluke that OU was good. Well, not a fluke, but fools gold for the program.

How could you not think that? The guy's record without one of the best players in the world on his team is already under .500, and will continue to get worse because of this season.

Under Sampson this program was almost always a sure bet to finish in the top 4 of the league. Nobody liked playing OU under Sampson. We were tough, we beat people up, we were talented, we rebounded very well, we defended very well, etc. The coaching was obvious.

I mean, Sampson would never go 8-20 over a 28 game stretch. How many coaches at good basketball schools (and OU has been voted a top 20 program) would tolerate that kind of thing? I honestly can't imagine any coach surviving a two year stretch like this. You can't rebuild starting in your 6th year.

I think we just had so much talent that year we shouldn't have lost anymore that we did. Not just Blake. Taylor has played in the league some. Austin Johnson is playing well overseas. The numbers he put up in Switzerland were eye popping. Tony Crocker is a good talent and he was about the 4th or 5th best player. Juan Patillo was a good talent. And most of that group wasn't recruited by Jeff Capel. Warren, Griffin, and Patillo were.

 

[Sooner_In_MI]

It's time to start the UnCapelables

Actually I believe the gramatically correct term would be the InCapelables.

 

[Mr.B!!!]

Amen.

If you lose three McDAA types after one year in the program together you kinda do. Look at UNC last season. However, after looking at this thread, I see for the first time in a while some thoughtful critiquing of where the program is at and the rationale behind it, specifically as it pertains to Capel.

I have no idea why he is coaching in-game the way he is, and a big part of our problem is getting behind in the first half, but it seems pretty obvious to me who our best players are (in no particular order):

Cade Davis
Pledger
Fitz
Newell
Clark

The problem is that three of these guys essentially play the same position and Fitz alone isn't going to get it done on the boards. That said, I'd start these five every game and try to get them as much time out there as possible before making substitutions. Oh, and my other brilliant idea that no coach has ever listened to me on is when conference play starts, never EVER start the bigs you want to get the most minutes (I hate that about our conference officiating).

 

[Seymore Cox]

My opinion of Capel is he's a talent coach, not a system coach. Eddie and Kelvin are system coaches. But the biggest thing about Capel is he can't close on talent and he misevaluates supporting players. Then when he gets talent, he can't manage them. Cousins was just as much a head case as Tiny. Calipari knows how to manage a guy like Cousins where as Capel couldn't with Tiny. Capel couldn't manage WW. Couldn't keep his head in the game. WW is in the NBA now looking like a model citizen. He has to translate is ability to relate to players and at the same time earn their respect.

Last year set in place this year. He sees it now. You've got to figure out TMG's situation. You can't let a guy like that just leave your program Marcus Dupree style and say "oh well". You've got to figure out a way to get him to want to be in school, get him to attempt to be a leader, and keep him on the roster. Same with Tiny. I know they were scared of NCAA issues, but Tiny's deal is chump change to what's happening today.

His objective this year is to figure out who he is as a coach, to figure out what his current team is, and to figure out how next year's team can make it to the big dance. He's several steps away from. He has only one substantial piece in place talent wise and that's Osby. He's not getting the core guys ready. He's got to have a clear, consistent defensive and offensive philosophy. And quite frankly, he's been getting his tail whipped on the recruiting circuit by everybody. Right now, there are only a handful of talent available to turn this thing around. If we start mixing questionable juco guys with a bunch of johnny come lately high school kids, guess what? We have the same roster we have this year except more younger and inexperienced. He's got to solidify the pg. He's got to identify someone who's going to provide the defensive identity this team doesn't have, shot blocking, rebounding, attacking the offensive glass. He's got to stop recruiting guys who are solely jumpshooter. We have a roster full of jump shooters at every position. If he doesn't do that, then his days are number.

I intended this to be a three sentence post. Sorry.

 

[AdaSooner]

My usual glass-is-half full, optimistic outlook on nearly everything when it comes to Sooner basketball, is at an all-time low. Actually, it sprung a leak last year. But I have never been this down before, and it didn't get much better after last night's game.

On the whole, I was pleased with our effort against Arkansas. But most of our players still looked like they didn't have a clue on defense, and it had very little to do with hustle and playing with passion. I said two days ago that we have too many weak links to stay in a man to man against nearly every team we'll face this year. The first three quarters of last night's game is a prime example about what I meant.

The question is, if I knew that going into last night's game, why did it take nearly three quarters and an 18 point deficit to force a switch to a match up zone? I realize our coaches were worried about Rotnei Clarke, and with good reason. But it's not that difficult to cheat in his direction and try to limit his open looks. I would rather take my chances on Clarke making threes than to give up dozens of virtually uncontested layups and dunks to his teammates.

Like most of the posters on this thread, I have serious reservations about the future of our program. There is no question in my mind that Goff and Osby will help. But we still need scorers from the perimeter and guards who can run the offense and control the ball, without giving it up to our opponents for easy scores. Geeeez! Why are all of the good shooters and slick ball handlers on the teams we play?

 

[Max Power]

My usual glass-is-half full, optimistic outlook on nearly everything when it comes to Sooner basketball, is at an all-time low. Actually, it sprung a leak last year. But I have never been this down before, and it didn't get much better after last night's game.

On the whole, I was pleased with our effort against Arkansas. But most of our players still looked like they didn't have a clue on defense, and it had very little to do with hustle and playing with passion. I said two days ago that we have too many weak links to stay in a man to man against nearly every team we'll face this year. The first three quarters of last night's game is a prime example about what I meant.

The question is, if I knew that going into last night's game, why did it take nearly three quarters and an 18 point deficit to force a switch to a match up zone? I realize our coaches were worried about Rotnei Clarke, and with good reason. But it's not that difficult to cheat in his direction and try to limit his open looks. I would rather take my chances on Clarke making threes than to give up dozens of virtually uncontested layups and dunks to his teammates.

Like most of the posters on this thread, I have serious reservations about the future of our program. There is no question in my mind that Goff and Osby will help. But we still need scorers from the perimeter and guards who can run the offense and control the ball, without giving it up to our opponents for easy scores. Geeeez! Why are all of the good shooters and slick ball handlers on the teams we play?

If they are that worried why not try a box and 1 with cade locking rotnei down

 

[BoulderSooner]

I guess I'm just wondering how optimistic we're supposed to be that Capel can take a team that could very possibly win less than 10 games this season and turn them into a 20+ win team next season, even with the addition of 3-4 new players. While I am optimistic that Osby and Goff can make a difference, they are not going to step on the floor and immediately be all-conference performers. From the way things are looking that's what Capel is going to need to save his job.

why .. can't they be all conf .. TE, gray nolan johnson were all all conf type players when they got to OU