OU @ ISU 7pm CST ESPN2

[Ghost of Gar Heard]

Ghost...I understand...but do you think IF Buddy didn't have the personal drive...(coming where he came from) to succeed he would be where he is?

Granted I don't know WHO corrected his shot..(Henson?) but whoever did it gave a few pointers. The kids have to have the desire...but part of the motivation is on coaches. Playing time, "captain"...can be a few things a coach can do to help that.

JM Ft's form is horrible...same with Ro.

Reminds of my son's college baseball coach...tellin him to not drop his glove 1 FRICKING inch when he came set (pitcher)...that was all he said. Then *****ed because Caleb walked a batter.

1. of course not but the question was "who, in the last few years, has improved at OU?" I was partly being facetious. No one is going to improve without the drive to improve. But I think to assume that the coaching staff played NO ROLE in that is ridiculous.

2. Lots of players have improved in the last few years. James is better than he was 3 years ago. Manek has improved from last year. McNeace is better (or at least was last year and this year pre-injury). Doolittle is lots better. Even Freeman is better. It was such a ridiculous question I felt it required a ridiculous answer.

3. Odomes' and McNeace's free throw shooting is horrendous but there's more to being a good player or to showing improvement than FT shooting. McNeace has low-post skills he was nowhere close to having 3 years ago.

 

[Ghost of Gar Heard]

this is a terrible take and i'm not sure that you actually watch OU basketball or are a fan of OU

Agreed. If he was paying attention, he would know that Manek scored from the low post 3 times (at least) last night.

 

[Ghost of Gar Heard]

This is a very contrarian view to most people here and I think it's dead-on correct. Manek looks like a typical OU player under Kruger, in that he is what he is and really won't get any better. He's now essentially played two full years and he's an 11-6 guy who shoots about 37 from 3. That's what he is. The former might go up a tick next year, without James, but I don't see any reason to think any dramatic improvement will be coming in his last two years on campus.

He's soft on the boards, has a very 3rd-grade mentality in that when he doesn't get the ball or when he thinks he got fouled, he pouts, doesn't give a full 100%, and doesn't get back on D. He also has about 2-4 possessions a game where you KNOW he's going to shoot it right when he gets the ball, whether he's open or not. I think, on the whole, he's a decent enough 3-point shooter, but he could be a lot better if he didn't take a few a night that aren't remotely in the flow of the offense or considered a good shot.

The fact he played 18 minutes last night, and was a very productive 4-7 from the floor, in a game where we couldn't score, is pretty interesting. He wasn't in foul trouble, so unless he was not feeling well, it just doesn't make any sense.

Laughable.

What's really ridiculous is that you spend 2 paragraphs bad-mouthing him and then say he did a pretty good job last night and should have played more minutes.

 

[Sooner04]

3. Odomes' and McNeace's free throw shooting is horrendous but there's more to being a good player or to showing improvement than FT shooting.

I disagree. A free-throw stroke is a window into the soul of a player. Are you an athlete, or are you a basketball player? A free-throw stroke will answer that question.

Put me in the camp that is disappointed in the development of our players.

 

[tmeyer3307]

I hate how people assume OU can get anyone they want. Maybe Bandoo said he wasn’t interested or he had red flags (which is very likely since he’s at BU).

OU was in his final 2 or 3. I'm pretty sure OU backed off late after having a lead for him..Then went to the grad transfers. Guys like Bandoo or Bieniemy won't scare off Harmon. He would of helped this season(starter possibly) and next as a legit back up guard to Harmon. Plus I'm going for the best players every year that will help my team win now. Don't care if it might scare a guy off or not. You lose a bunch of games this season as a coach you may not see next season with the next group of guys coming in.

 

[NY Soonerfan]

Laughable.

What's really ridiculous is that you spend 2 paragraphs bad-mouthing him and then say he did a pretty good job last night and should have played more minutes.

So you think he does play hard on the boards, does consistently take good shots, doesn't pout when things don't go his way and always gives full effort?

And where is it stated that you can't "bad mouth" someone but also still realize to give them props when they do something well? Manek has had several stretches where he's played well this year, unfortunately he's had more where what I described above has happened, and if he didn't do any of that, the good stretches would be a lot more prevalent.

I love the "laughable" comment too, and then follow it up with nothing, and not even discussing what was posted. I'm all eyes if you want to tell me he isn't guilty of all of what I said.

 

[BCSooners]

OU was in his final 2 or 3. I'm pretty sure OU backed off late after having a lead for him..Then went to the grad transfers. Guys like Bandoo or Bieniemy won't scare off Harmon. He would of helped this season(starter possibly) and next as a legit back up guard to Harmon. Plus I'm going for the best players every year that will help my team win now. Don't care if it might scare a guy off or not. You lose a bunch of games this season as a coach you may not see next season with the next group of guys coming in.

My guess is there's a good reason they backed off him.

 

[BCSooners]

I disagree. A free-throw stroke is a window into the soul of a player. Are you an athlete, or are you a basketball player? A free-throw stroke will answer that question.

Put me in the camp that is disappointed in the development of our players.

So Shaq wasn't a basketball player? Westbrook doesn't have the soul of a basketball player anymore? Rodman? I could go on & on but that statement is very flawed.

 

[thebigabd]

OU was in his final 2 or 3. I'm pretty sure OU backed off late after having a lead for him..Then went to the grad transfers. Guys like Bandoo or Bieniemy won't scare off Harmon. He would of helped this season(starter possibly) and next as a legit back up guard to Harmon. Plus I'm going for the best players every year that will help my team win now. Don't care if it might scare a guy off or not. You lose a bunch of games this season as a coach you may not see next season with the next group of guys coming in.

"People are calling, but he’s the kind of kid where he’s not trying to make a dramatic thing. Oklahoma was very interested, but they got a grad transfer just last weekend."
-Jay Cyriac (Bandoos juco coach)

Directly from the coach... Kruger chose Reynolds directly over Bandoo. Had nothing to do with character, grades, fit, etc. Kruger thought Reynolds was better OR just wanted to do a 1 year rental instead of a 2 year commitment.

He had bird in the hand... Whats wrong with 2 years from a good player? 22 against WVU, 19 against OU, 16 against KSU, 13 against ISU, 10 against Kansas, etc. He's a good, solid player. 40% 3pt shooter. HE FILLS A ROLE.

I mean, you guys don't want to hear it, but this is the primary recruiting difference between Sampson and Kruger/Capel. Really, its the same thing going on in Stillwater..

OSU sucks... and they didn't offer Bandoo or Mason Jones. Both are very good players at Baylor and Arkansas. OU didn't offer either of them too.

G - Devonte Bandoo/Bienemy
G - Mason Jones/Bienemy
G - Christian James/Odomes
F - Doolittle/Odomes
F - Manek/McNease (whichever)

That's a 25 win team. And thats with 2 guys OU would not have had a problem getting. They didn't even offer scholarships. Don't even have to shakeup the current core of the team. Just take Jones and Bandoo instead of Reynolds and Calixte. Guys that are 3 hours from your campus instead of scrubs from Maine and California.

I know its kind of a dead horse, but OSU and OU haven't been able to sustain success without this mindset.

From 2000 to 2005, OSU made the NCAA Tournament every year.

In that time they had Maurice Baker, Tony Allen, Melvin Sanders, Marrio Boggan, Torre Johnson, and several other role players coming in from juco to lead team...

Eddie left the program in 2006.

OSU hasn't even had a juco player on roster since 2015. Last one was Jeff Newberry, who averaged 11 ppg and was honorable mention All Big 12.

OSU hasn't had any significant success in basketball since Eddie left, and like Kelvin, Eddie relied heavily on local junior college talent.

 

[SoonerinNC]

Our game fell apart when we stopped executing our offense and went one on one, resulting in some badly forced shots.

If I have a criticism of Kruger it is that he lets them go one on one too much. Doolittle, Odomes and James do that too much. A part of it is judgment to know when it is really available and when it is little more than a prayer to try to take the defense one on one.

I think both Manek and Doolittle have improved. James also has improved but is a little bit hit and miss.

Iowa State is a good team and we had to bring our A game to win. We did so for a half and then let it get away from us.

 

[hoopsaustin]

"People are calling, but he’s the kind of kid where he’s not trying to make a dramatic thing. Oklahoma was very interested, but they got a grad transfer just last weekend."
-Jay Cyriac (Bandoos juco coach)

Directly from the coach... Kruger chose Reynolds directly over Bandoo. Had nothing to do with character, grades, fit, etc. Kruger thought Reynolds was better OR just wanted to do a 1 year rental instead of a 2 year commitment.

He had bird in the hand... Whats wrong with 2 years from a good player? 22 against WVU, 19 against OU, 16 against KSU, 13 against ISU, 10 against Kansas, etc. He's a good, solid player. 40% 3pt shooter. HE FILLS A ROLE.

I mean, you guys don't want to hear it, but this is the primary recruiting difference between Sampson and Kruger/Capel. Really, its the same thing going on in Stillwater..

OSU sucks... and they didn't offer Bandoo or Mason Jones. Both are very good players at Baylor and Arkansas. OU didn't offer either of them too.

G - Devonte Bandoo/Bienemy
G - Mason Jones/Bienemy
G - Christian James/Odomes
F - Doolittle/Odomes
F - Manek/McNease (whichever)

That's a 25 win team. And thats with 2 guys OU would not have had a problem getting. They didn't even offer scholarships. Don't even have to shakeup the current core of the team. Just take Jones and Bandoo instead of Reynolds and Calixte. Guys that are 3 hours from your campus instead of scrubs from Maine and California.

I know its kind of a dead horse, but OSU and OU haven't been able to sustain success without this mindset.

From 2000 to 2005, OSU made the NCAA Tournament every year.

In that time they had Maurice Baker, Tony Allen, Melvin Sanders, Marrio Boggan, Torre Johnson, and several other role players coming in from juco to lead team...

Eddie left the program in 2006.

OSU hasn't even had a juco player on roster since 2015. Last one was Jeff Newberry, who averaged 11 ppg and was honorable mention All Big 12.

OSU hasn't had any significant success in basketball since Eddie left, and like Kelvin, Eddie relied heavily on local junior college talent.

My problem with your constant juco touting after the fact is that you realize that the quote from his JC coach says OU was very interested.. it does not say "BANDOO is very interested and would commit to OU if they wanted him"

You dont know that it wasnt Bandoo that tipped his hand that he didnt want to go to OU and so OU moved on..

You cant automatically get a kid bc you want him and hes at a juco nearby geographically

 

[WichitaSooner]

Our game fell apart when we stopped executing our offense and went one on one, resulting in some badly forced shots.

If I have a criticism of Kruger it is that he lets them go one on one too much. Doolittle, Odomes and James do that too much. A part of it is judgment to know when it is really available and when it is little more than a prayer to try to take the defense one on one.

I think both Manek and Doolittle have improved. James also has improved but is a little bit hit and miss.

Iowa State is a good team and we had to bring our A game to win. We did so for a half and then let it get away from us.

I think the main reason Calixte is no longer our starting point guard is because he plays too much one on one and Lon wasn't happy. I agree that James shouldn't play that way, he doesn't have the handle to do it and isn't a good enough finisher. RO is better at it but doesn't always finish once he gets past his man and has to contend with bigs at the rim.

I think Doo is a little different. A lot of times they go to him in the high post to try to take advantage of a mismatch IMO. I don't mind that as much because he's been our best player for several weeks now.

 

[OU92Grad]

Just looked up Big 12 stat Leaders thru 15 games of Big 12 play -OU players were as follows:

SCORING:
Doo - 10th averaging 13.1 in 33.4 minutes a game
James - 12th averaging 12.9 in 34.5 minutes a game
Manek 16th averaging 11.9 in 28.1 min game

Rebounding:
Doo 3rd 7.8 per game
James 9th 6.7
Manek 16th 5.3

Field Goal Percentage:
Manek 7th shooting 48.9% (no other Sooner in leaders)

3 Point Percentage:
Manek 14th Shooting 38.8% (no other Sooner in Leaders)

3 Point Shots Made:
Manek 14th - with 26 made 3's ( no other Sooner in leaders)

Blocked Shots:
Manek 12th with 12 blocks
Doo 14th with 11 blocks

Assist:
Bienemy 11th 3.1 per game (no other sooners in leaders)

Steals:
James 6th 1.4 per game
Bienemy 12th 1.2 per game

 

[thebigabd]

My problem with your constant juco touting after the fact is that you realize that the quote from his JC coach says OU was very interested.. it does not say "BANDOO is very interested and would commit to OU if they wanted him"

You dont know that it wasnt Bandoo that tipped his hand that he didnt want to go to OU and so OU moved on..

You cant automatically get a kid bc you want him and hes at a juco nearby geographically

Ok, but can I respond in a productive way?

My problem with you saying these local juco guys won't come to OU just because we have a history with juco talent, we are a top 20 program, and they are geographically nearby is this.....

I know damn sure they won't come to OU if they aren't even offered scholarships. And that is what is happening in Norman and Stillwater right now.

I know Mason Jones wasn't offered a scholarship..... He was the most productive recruit in Oklahoma.

I know Devonte Bandoo wasn't offered a scholarship.... He was the 2nd most productive recruit in Kansas.

Your argument is... "just because OU offers doesn't mean they will come".

My argument is... "in order for that to be true, you have to first offer, which we aren't doing"... In nearly all these cases, OU would be the best program to offer these guys. When you go chase elite high school talent, OU is NOT the best program to offer them. That is a big deal.

OU has not offered Tajzmel Sherman from Collin County CC in Texas. That is 2 hours away.... Averaging 26 points, 5 rebounds, 5 assists per game at Collin County CC in Texas.. 87% foul shooter, 40% 3pt shooter. 6’4’’ guard.

But they did go to Australia and offer Anyang Garang.

Thats exactly like..... They didnt offer Shak Juiston from Kansas, but they went to Finland for Hannes Polla. They didn't offer Vladimir Broadziansky, but they went to New Zealand and offered Matt Freeman. Vlad was All Big 12 like 3 years in a row from a Kansas juco.

This just doesn't make sense.

OU would be the best offer Bandoo, Jones, Sherman, Juiston, Vlad Broadziansky, or lots of other guys who went to Arkansas, Baylor, TCU, Houston, etc from the area.

These are the guys OU wins with.... maybe they aren't sexy, but that's how it gets done. Sampson knew it. In fact, he is on record somewhere saying its basically the only win to win consistently at OU. And OU got a ton of these same exact kinds of players from these same exact schools... They are still there. OU just doesn't care about them anymore.

So, while I agree with you that they won't come simply by offering them a scholarship.... I will say that in pretty much ALL these examples, OU would be the best program offering them, and you at least tried. That isn't even happening.

And, I do believe being close helps you as well. Sampson said it did... And I know it has helped with Trae Young, Brady Manek, Blake Griffin, Doolittle, etc.

 

[AdaSooner]

I disagree. A free-throw stroke is a window into the soul of a player. Are you an athlete, or are you a basketball player? A free-throw stroke will answer that question.

Put me in the camp that is disappointed in the development of our players.

Welcome to the camp I have been in since last year! What bothers me more than anything is that most of our players have regressed or remained the same the past two seasons.

I made a post not long ago to show that Odomes was good from the free throw line and from behind the arc when he arrived at OU. McNeace was just as good as a sophomore as he was before the injury this season. He is not nearly as good now. Muni and Freeman still don’t know how to play defense or block out on the boards. Reynolds and Calixte went from reliable free throw shooters, even under pressure, to grad transfer seniors who are not confident at the line anymore. There are other examples, but you get the idea.

I’ll be one of the first to admit that our players should accept some of the responsibility for working out on their own to improve. But when the players are not self-starters like Buddy, Isaiah and Ryan, it’s up to the coaches to motivate them to get better. Henson did that with Buddy. I remember a video and an article thst featured Steve putting Buddy through his routine at all hours of the day and on weekends.

Yes, Buddy was a unique young man. But if our coaches aren’t doing that with our players now, maybe that is why the improvements we’re seeing are not where they should be. If they were expecting a 9 to 5 job, they should be working at a local bank or retail store.

 

[Eielson]

1. of course not but the question was "who, in the last few years, has improved at OU?" I was partly being facetious. No one is going to improve without the drive to improve. But I think to assume that the coaching staff played NO ROLE in that is ridiculous.

2. Lots of players have improved in the last few years. James is better than he was 3 years ago. Manek has improved from last year. McNeace is better (or at least was last year and this year pre-injury). Doolittle is lots better. Even Freeman is better. It was such a ridiculous question I felt it required a ridiculous answer.

3. Odomes' and McNeace's free throw shooting is horrendous but there's more to being a good player or to showing improvement than FT shooting. McNeace has low-post skills he was nowhere close to having 3 years ago.

It's not a ridiculous question at all. More guys have regressed than improved since that Final 4 team. Doolittle is better, but let's not pretend he didn't drop 29/10 on Texas two years ago as a true freshman. James is also better, but he was a 15-20 minute contributor on a Final 4 team as a true freshman 3 years ago. Nobody has exceeded our expectations in terms of development. Doolittle is who we thought he'd be after his freshman year, and James is actually worse (though better than we thought after his sophomore year). Muni has improved since stepping on campus (nowhere to go but up when you're that raw), but he's the same player he was as a sophomore.

Meanwhile McGusty and Lattin were absolute catastrophes. The jury is still out on Manek, but his best basketball here was played over a year ago. Odomes has regressed despite numerous reports as a sophomore about how great his work ethic was. Woodard had a rough senior year even before the injury, but I'm told there's a lot more to that story. Even Trae got progressively worse the longer he was on campus, but I'm not going to put that all on the coaching staff.

Quite honestly, Lon might be better off if he stopped recruiting posts all together. He inherited Osby from Capel/Miss State, Spangler from Gonzaga, and Thomas from Houston. I'd rather hit the grad transfer portal every year looking for bigs than see anymore of these European projects flop.

 

[thebigabd]

Quite honestly, Lon might be better off if he stopped recruiting posts all together. He inherited Osby from Capel/Miss State, Spangler from Gonzaga, and Thomas from Houston. I'd rather hit the grad transfer portal every year looking for bigs than see anymore of these European projects flop.

Probably not a bad idea.

 

[Ghost of Gar Heard]

So you think he does play hard on the boards, does consistently take good shots, doesn't pout when things don't go his way and always gives full effort?

And where is it stated that you can't "bad mouth" someone but also still realize to give them props when they do something well? Manek has had several stretches where he's played well this year, unfortunately he's had more where what I described above has happened, and if he didn't do any of that, the good stretches would be a lot more prevalent.

I love the "laughable" comment too, and then follow it up with nothing, and not even discussing what was posted. I'm all eyes if you want to tell me he isn't guilty of all of what I said.

I didn't discuss it because it was an absurd statement. It was then and is now, laughable. But keep bad-mouthing the team's best players with your ridiculous ad hominems if that makes you feel better.

 

[WTSooner]

Ok, but can I respond in a productive way?

My problem with you saying these local juco guys won't come to OU just because we have a history with juco talent, we are a top 20 program, and they are geographically nearby is this.....

I know damn sure they won't come to OU if they aren't even offered scholarships. And that is what is happening in Norman and Stillwater right now.

I know Mason Jones wasn't offered a scholarship..... He was the most productive recruit in Oklahoma.

I know Devonte Bandoo wasn't offered a scholarship.... He was the 2nd most productive recruit in Kansas.

Your argument is... "just because OU offers doesn't mean they will come".

My argument is... "in order for that to be true, you have to first offer, which we aren't doing"... In nearly all these cases, OU would be the best program to offer these guys. When you go chase elite high school talent, OU is NOT the best program to offer them. That is a big deal.

OU has not offered Tajzmel Sherman from Collin County CC in Texas. That is 2 hours away.... Averaging 26 points, 5 rebounds, 5 assists per game at Collin County CC in Texas.. 87% foul shooter, 40% 3pt shooter. 6’4’’ guard.

But they did go to Australia and offer Anyang Garang.

Thats exactly like..... They didnt offer Shak Juiston from Kansas, but they went to Finland for Hannes Polla. They didn't offer Vladimir Broadziansky, but they went to New Zealand and offered Matt Freeman. Vlad was All Big 12 like 3 years in a row from a Kansas juco.

This just doesn't make sense.

OU would be the best offer Bandoo, Jones, Sherman, Juiston, Vlad Broadziansky, or lots of other guys who went to Arkansas, Baylor, TCU, Houston, etc from the area.

These are the guys OU wins with.... maybe they aren't sexy, but that's how it gets done. Sampson knew it. In fact, he is on record somewhere saying its basically the only win to win consistently at OU. And OU got a ton of these same exact kinds of players from these same exact schools... They are still there. OU just doesn't care about them anymore.

So, while I agree with you that they won't come simply by offering them a scholarship.... I will say that in pretty much ALL these examples, OU would be the best program offering them, and you at least tried. That isn't even happening.

And, I do believe being close helps you as well. Sampson said it did... And I know it has helped with Trae Young, Brady Manek, Blake Griffin, Doolittle, etc.

A lot of really good points here.

 

[Ghost of Gar Heard]

It's not a ridiculous question at all. More guys have regressed than improved since that Final 4 team.

This is just patently false and I gave several examples to highlight how ridiculous it is. Perhaps they haven't improved to the point that you thought they should have and you might even be right, but that's not the same as saying they haven't improved. James, Manek, Doolittle, McNeace, Odomes, Freeman...they're all better than they were when they got to Norman. It's just not close.

It's amazing to me that people who claim to be OU fans make these ridiculously hyperbolic statements specifically designed to either generate attention or bad-mouth the team/players/coaches/program and then others jump on and say, "yeah, he's right" rather than acknowledge how ludicrous the statement was to begin with.

If you're trying to convince others that none of these players have improved in the time they've been at OU then, at best, your memory is just poor. At worst, you're not being honest. Do you seriously believe James isn't better now than he was as a freshman, or that Manek's not better now than he was last year? If so, you can't be helped.