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[SoonerBounce13]

I think DG is way down the list of reasons we didn't make the playoffs. He was easily a top 10 QB in the country last season.

I never said DG was a reason we didn't make the playoffs

 

[WichitaSooner]

once again, put Baker, Kyler, or CW on OU's team last year and we are in the playoff.
A playoff birth and not even making the conference championship is a very fine line.
Brent's second team was a much better team than LR's teams. Immensely better defensively and not a huge drop off offensively.

It was a massive drop off offensively. We couldn't run the ball worth a crap for the first 7 or 8 games, partially because he insisted on playing Major and Barnes when Walker (and Sawchuk) were clearly better. But look around the field by position group. Lincoln's teams had all world O-lines (not saying that was his doing, just that we had crazy talent there), guys like Lamb and Brown at WR, Andrews at TE, and some really good RBs. This year's team didn't have a single skill position guy who was even good enough to get a combine invite. Do you think Lincoln's teams would have been incapable of scoring on Kansas and OSU?

The Big 12 was bad this year. Texas was very good, but the rest of the league was crappy. We got a favorable schedule, yet didn't even make it to Arlington. And Brent contributed directly to both losses with fourth quarter penalties, in addition to one of the most ridiculously conservative game plans in Lawrence that I've ever seen. And as bad as special teams was under Riley, it has somehow gotten even worse.

 

[SoonerBounce13]

It was a massive drop off offensively. We couldn't run the ball worth a crap for the first 7 or 8 games, partially because he insisted on playing Major and Barnes when Walker (and Sawchuk) were clearly better. But look around the field by position group. Lincoln's teams had all world O-lines (not saying that was his doing, just that we had crazy talent there), guys like Lamb and Brown at WR, Andrews at TE, and some really good RBs. This year's team didn't have a single skill position guy who was even good enough to get a combine invite. Do you think Lincoln's teams would have been incapable of scoring on Kansas and OSU?

The Big 12 was bad this year. Texas was very good, but the rest of the league was crappy. We got a favorable schedule, yet didn't even make it to Arlington. And Brent contributed directly to both losses with fourth quarter penalties, in addition to one of the most ridiculously conservative game plans in Lawrence that I've ever seen. And as bad as special teams was under Riley, it has somehow gotten even worse.

The metrics say differently. It wasn't a huge drop off. LR had plenty of WTF moments as a HC and several head scratching offensive outputs that were bailed out by generational talents at QB

As far as offensive duds for LR:
2021
Vs Nebraska 23 points
vs WVU 16 points
@ Baylor 14 points

2020
vs Baylor 27 points
vs ISU 27 points

Offensive duds for BV
2023
vs SMU 28 points
@ Cincy 20
@ OSU 24

2022
@ TCU 24
*Texas
@ ISU 27
@ WVU 20
OSU 28

As for offensive rankings (Scoring rank / yard per game rank)

2023 (4 @ 41.7 ppg / 3 @ 507 ypg)
2022 (33 @ 32.8 ppg / 13 @ 474 ypg)
2021 (8 @ 39.1 ppg / 18 @ 451 ypg)
2020 ( 6 @ 43 ppg / 11 @ 494.7 ypg)

Brent's avg offensive rankings ( 18.5 @ 37 ppg) & ( 8 @ 490 ypg)
LR last 2 years ( 7 @ 41 ppg) & (14.5 @ 473 ypg)

 

[skyvue]

I never said DG was a reason we didn't make the playoffs

Perhaps not in so many words, but You did say that replacing DG with Baker, Kyler or CW on the team would have put us in the playoffs. Surely you can see how that could be interpreted as you saying that DG was a primary reason we didn't.

 

[SoonerBounce13]

Perhaps not in so many words, but You did say that replacing DG with Baker, Kyler or CW on the team would have put us in the playoffs. Surely you can see how that could be interpreted as you saying that DG was a primary reason we didn't.

Not at all.
Inferring that is just not taking the argument at hand correctly
OU didn't reach the playoffs for multiple reasons. DG having little to do with that.
But having generational talents at QB is a big difference between having a player that didn't even get invited to the senior bowl as one of the top passers in college history (statistically).

The cowboys didn't make it far in the playoffs despite having one of the top rated QBs in the NFL. It wouldn't be fair to say that it was Dak's fault that they didn't win a superbowl. BUT having Patrick Mahomes on the Cowboys would have undoubtedly make them a better team

 

[WichitaSooner]

The metrics say differently. It wasn't a huge drop off. LR had plenty of WTF moments as a HC and several head scratching offensive outputs that were bailed out by generational talents at QB

As far as offensive duds for LR:
2021
Vs Nebraska 23 points
vs WVU 16 points
@ Baylor 14 points

2020
vs Baylor 27 points
vs ISU 27 points

Offensive duds for BV
2023
vs SMU 28 points
@ Cincy 20
@ OSU 24

2022
@ TCU 24
*Texas
@ ISU 27
@ WVU 20
OSU 28

As for offensive rankings (Scoring rank / yard per game rank)

2023 (4 @ 41.7 ppg / 3 @ 507 ypg)
2022 (33 @ 32.8 ppg / 13 @ 474 ypg)
2021 (8 @ 39.1 ppg / 18 @ 451 ypg)
2020 ( 6 @ 43 ppg / 11 @ 494.7 ypg)

Brent's avg offensive rankings ( 18.5 @ 37 ppg) & ( 8 @ 490 ypg)
LR last 2 years ( 7 @ 41 ppg) & (14.5 @ 473 ypg)

So by your own estimation, Brent has produced more offensive duds in two years than Riley did in his entire career in Norman. And it's also interesting that you omit Riley's best years from the offensive rankings.

 

[SoonerBounce13]

So by your own estimation, Brent has produced more offensive duds in two years than Riley did in his entire career in Norman. And it's also interesting that you omit Riley's best years from the offensive rankings.

No that isn't my estimation. From the data I provided, I'd say LR had worse duds. I only used the last 2 years of data for LR because we only have 2 years of data from BV. I didn't even look at the previous years. But again, you are totally missing the point. You said there was a huge drop off. There wasn't. If you look at the 2 years prior to BV taking over, there is little drop off. Especially when you consider the postion LR left OU in.

 

[OU92Grad]

Ha ha! This thread has turned into a football thread! Basketball team is unwatchable!

 

[Eielson]

I understand what you're saying, but this needs to be taken with a grain of salt/context. 8 of our non-con wins were against corpses. Another 3 non-con wins were against teams that either vastly underachieved or ended up being rotten (Iowa, USC, and Arkie). 3 more wins came against the two worst teams in our conference (WV, and osux2). I'm glad we've won 19 games, but in reality, we've only beaten 5 teams with an actual pulse this year....ISU (great win) and @KSU, @Cincy, BYU (really good wins) and Providence (good win). Having said that, I'm encouraged that we are in a position to make the tournament, but we can all see our flaws....which a few are significant.

I do think our trajectory is moving in the right direction, but the ascent has been far from linear.....lots of ups and downs. I'm far from sold on Moser, but with every win I do feel slightly better. I still think he has a ways to go before he convinces some fans that he is the guy to take us to the next level.

Say what you want about the nonconference this year, but over the same stretch, we've never won more than 9 conference games. This season right now is Lon Kruger's four final seasons on repeat. I wasn't content with that, so I completely understand our fanbase still wanting better. Count me in this group. It's just comical that some of the same posters that ardently defended Lon's 18-20 win tourney seasons want Moser fired after a season like this. It's one thing if posters want to call us average/mediocre, but if we're truly terrible on offense and defense, then we wouldn't be on pace to make the tourney. You don't have to be elite, but you at least have to be doing something decent.

 

[Eielson]

Wichita has reached new lows that I didn't think possible. Defending Lincoln Riley is next-level clown stuff. I guess we shouldn't be surprised.

 

[Boom Soon]

Say what you want about the nonconference this year, but over the same stretch, we've never won more than 9 conference games. This season right now is Lon Kruger's four final seasons on repeat. I wasn't content with that, so I completely understand our fanbase still wanting better. Count me in this group. It's just comical that some of the same posters that ardently defended Lon's 18-20 win tourney seasons want Moser fired after a season like this. It's one thing if posters want to call us average/mediocre, but if we're truly terrible on offense and defense, then we wouldn't be on pace to make the tourney. You don't have to be elite, but you at least have to be doing something decent.

We can't compare Lon and Moser. They are two completely different situations. I guess I'll just say this until I'm blue in the face. Lon Kruger completed his job at Oklahoma. He turned the program around. OU made the tournament more often than not under Lon. Yes, there are some seriously disappointing moments post-Buddy Hield. Yes, I think we can all agree that by 2017 Lon's best coaching days were probably behind him. I'll be the first to point out that his HS recruiting was not very good after Tre Young. But, at the end of the day, we fans could atleast count on a tournament birth and a potential win in the first round. In fact, I'd say we got alittle spoiled. No fan thought that by year three with Moser OU's BEST outcome would be a bubble team. By year three OU was supposed to be elite or at the very least close to that. Moser was supposed to not only sustain Lon's success but build on it. And he has NOT done that. We can debate (and often will) the state of the program, whether there needs to be more support, the merits of the transfer portal, etc. But, the bottom line is that Moser will have failed at OU if he cannot at the very least make the tournament by year three. Because he was not brought in to keep OU at mediocracy. And that's why I think Moser chose Oklahoma. I don't think he would have left Loyola to go to a program that wasn't in a good enough spot for him to consistently compete for championships within a few years.

Everyone has a hill to die on and I guess this is mine. But, I think one has to understand this to get why many posters are SO frustrated with Moser's tenure when mabe they gave Lon a pass.

 

[WichitaSooner]

Wichita has reached new lows that I didn't think possible. Defending Lincoln Riley is next-level clown stuff. I guess we shouldn't be surprised.

You have reached next level lows of stupidity and illiteracy. I said he was a brilliant offensive mind who sucked at every other part of the job. The fact that I don’t think Brent is doing a good job doesn’t amount to defending Riley. But if given the choice between winning 85 percent of our games and four conference titles as opposed to losing 10 games over the last two years, primarily to inferior rosters, I guess I’m dumb enough to say that I preferred the winning.

 

[Eielson]

We can't compare Lon and Moser. They are two completely different situations. I guess I'll just say this until I'm blue in the face. Lon Kruger completed his job at Oklahoma. He turned the program around. OU made the tournament more often than not under Lon. Yes, there are some seriously disappointing moments post-Buddy Hield. Yes, I think we can all agree that by 2017 Lon's best coaching days were probably behind him. I'll be the first to point out that his HS recruiting was not very good after Tre Young. But, at the end of the day, we fans could atleast count on a tournament birth and a potential win in the first round. In fact, I'd say we got alittle spoiled. No fan thought that by year three with Moser OU's BEST outcome would be a bubble team. By year three OU was supposed to be elite or at the very least close to that. Moser was supposed to not only sustain Lon's success but build on it. And he has NOT done that. We can debate (and often will) the state of the program, whether there needs to be more support, the merits of the transfer portal, etc. But, the bottom line is that Moser will have failed at OU if he cannot at the very least make the tournament by year three. Because he was not brought in to keep OU at mediocracy. And that's why I think Moser chose Oklahoma. I don't think he would have left Loyola to go to a program that wasn't in a good enough spot for him to consistently compete for championships within a few years.

Everyone has a hill to die on and I guess this is mine. But, I think one has to understand this to get why many posters are SO frustrated with Moser's tenure when mabe they gave Lon a pass.

I agree that Lon did his job -- keep us competitive most years while keeping us out of trouble. Two straight coaches had gotten us in trouble, and with the recent Rhett Bomar situation, I think many were willing to tank our basketball program in order to protect the golden goose (football). Joe C brought him in to be our basketball version of Gary Gibbs, which is essentially what he was. He was a bit beyond that thanks to the Final Four run.

I will never stop pushing back on the notion that he rebuilt the program. As bad as Capel's final two seasons were, he absolutely did not undo the golden era of OU basketball gifted us by Tubbs and Sampson. Tubbs and Sampson provided 25, which Capel carried on for 3 season before crashing post-Blake. 64 games prior to Lon's arrival, we were genuinely competing for a national title, and I still believe we pull it off we could have found a way past UNC.

Our descent to mediocrity has been the work of three different coaches.

 

[Eielson]

You have reached next level lows of stupidity and illiteracy. I said he was a brilliant offensive mind who sucked at every other part of the job. The fact that I don’t think Brent is doing a good job doesn’t amount to defending Riley. But if given the choice between winning 85 percent of our games and four conference titles as opposed to losing 10 games over the last two years, primarily to inferior rosters, I guess I’m dumb enough to say that I preferred the winning.

If you're struggling to communicate what you intend to, it doesn't make your reader stupid. Although acutally...I do feel stupider when I read your posts, so perhaps you're onto something.

Congrats to Riley for riding Bob's roster to a few great seasons. He's a more modern version of Larry Coker. His first season he choked away a 31-14 CFP lead away that cost us #8, the following year was down 28-0 barely into the second quarter, and then was losing 49-14 at halftime the following year. Then we didn't go to the CFP and by the time Bob's guys were all gone, we were an Alamo Bowl team. And that was with one of the best NFL QB prospects of all time.

What would OU look under Riley without a QB like Caleb Wiliams? Well let's take a look at that final season...

Week 1: beat Tulane (2-10) by 5. Came down to final possession.
Week 2: not a real team
Week 3: beat Nebraska (3-9) by 7. Came down to final possession
Week 4: beat WVU (6-7) by 3. Final possession again.
Week 5: beat KSU by 6
Week 6: losing to a UT (5-7) 28-7 until Caleb came in. UT went 5-7 and missed their bowl game.

We hadn't won an FCS game by more than one score before Caleb took over, and KSU was the only team that ended a season with a winning record. We had games that came down the final possession against 2-10 and 3-9 teams. The 2-10 team wasn't even P5.

Riley inherited a national championship-caliber team. When he left, he could barely win games with an NFL QB (Rattler). That team was absolute garbage outside of the generational QB that he took with him. OU football had fallen apart at all but one position and had a huge rebuild ahead.

Lincoln Riley took his generational QB to USC. How did that work out for him? Last I checked, 10-2 is a lot better than 7-5.

 

[SoonerBounce13]

We can't compare Lon and Moser. They are two completely different situations. I guess I'll just say this until I'm blue in the face. Lon Kruger completed his job at Oklahoma. He turned the program around. OU made the tournament more often than not under Lon. Yes, there are some seriously disappointing moments post-Buddy Hield. Yes, I think we can all agree that by 2017 Lon's best coaching days were probably behind him. I'll be the first to point out that his HS recruiting was not very good after Tre Young. But, at the end of the day, we fans could atleast count on a tournament birth and a potential win in the first round. In fact, I'd say we got alittle spoiled. No fan thought that by year three with Moser OU's BEST outcome would be a bubble team. By year three OU was supposed to be elite or at the very least close to that. Moser was supposed to not only sustain Lon's success but build on it. And he has NOT done that. We can debate (and often will) the state of the program, whether there needs to be more support, the merits of the transfer portal, etc. But, the bottom line is that Moser will have failed at OU if he cannot at the very least make the tournament by year three. Because he was not brought in to keep OU at mediocracy. And that's why I think Moser chose Oklahoma. I don't think he would have left Loyola to go to a program that wasn't in a good enough spot for him to consistently compete for championships within a few years.

Everyone has a hill to die on and I guess this is mine. But, I think one has to understand this to get why many posters are SO frustrated with Moser's tenure when mabe they gave Lon a pass.

This is nonsense. You absolutely can compare 2 coaches at OU. There is not good reason not too

Lon Kruger was hired to coach basketball and not win games without getting in trouble.

The same is said of PM

 

[SoonerBounce13]

If you're struggling to communicate what you intend to, it doesn't make your reader stupid. Although acutally...I do feel stupider when I read your posts, so perhaps you're onto something.

Congrats to Riley for riding Bob's roster to a few great seasons. He's a more modern version of Larry Coker. His first season he choked away a 31-14 CFP lead away that cost us #8, the following year was down 28-0 barely into the second quarter, and then was losing 49-14 at halftime the following year. Then we didn't go to the CFP and by the time Bob's guys were all gone, we were an Alamo Bowl team. And that was with one of the best NFL QB prospects of all time.

What would OU look under Riley without a QB like Caleb Wiliams? Well let's take a look at that final season...

Week 1: beat Tulane (2-10) by 5. Came down to final possession.
Week 2: not a real team
Week 3: beat Nebraska (3-9) by 7. Came down to final possession
Week 4: beat WVU (6-7) by 3. Final possession again.
Week 5: beat KSU by 6
Week 6: losing to a UT (5-7) 28-7 until Caleb came in. UT went 5-7 and missed their bowl game.

We hadn't won an FCS game by more than one score before Caleb took over, and KSU was the only team that ended a season with a winning record. We had games that came down the final possession against 2-10 and 3-9 teams. The 2-10 team wasn't even P5.

Riley inherited a national championship-caliber team. When he left, he could barely win games with an NFL QB (Rattler). That team was absolute garbage outside of the generational QB that he took with him. OU football had fallen apart at all but one position and had a huge rebuild ahead.

Lincoln Riley took his generational QB to USC. How did that work out for him? Last I checked, 10-2 is a lot better than 7-5.

Amazing post brother

 

[Boom Soon]

This is nonsense. You absolutely can compare 2 coaches at OU. There is not good reason not too

Lon Kruger was hired to coach basketball and not win games without getting in trouble.

The same is said of PM

I would say it’s more nuanced than that. I would like to think Joe C has more of a vision of the program than just staying clean and winning some games. But that’s okay we can disagree. Obviously nobody knows what goes on behind closed doors.

 

[WichitaSooner]

If you're struggling to communicate what you intend to, it doesn't make your reader stupid. Although acutally...I do feel stupider when I read your posts, so perhaps you're onto something.

Congrats to Riley for riding Bob's roster to a few great seasons. He's a more modern version of Larry Coker. His first season he choked away a 31-14 CFP lead away that cost us #8, the following year was down 28-0 barely into the second quarter, and then was losing 49-14 at halftime the following year. Then we didn't go to the CFP and by the time Bob's guys were all gone, we were an Alamo Bowl team. And that was with one of the best NFL QB prospects of all time.

What would OU look under Riley without a QB like Caleb Wiliams? Well let's take a look at that final season...

Week 1: beat Tulane (2-10) by 5. Came down to final possession.
Week 2: not a real team
Week 3: beat Nebraska (3-9) by 7. Came down to final possession
Week 4: beat WVU (6-7) by 3. Final possession again.
Week 5: beat KSU by 6
Week 6: losing to a UT (5-7) 28-7 until Caleb came in. UT went 5-7 and missed their bowl game.

We hadn't won an FCS game by more than one score before Caleb took over, and KSU was the only team that ended a season with a winning record. We had games that came down the final possession against 2-10 and 3-9 teams. The 2-10 team wasn't even P5.

Riley inherited a national championship-caliber team. When he left, he could barely win games with an NFL QB (Rattler). That team was absolute garbage outside of the generational QB that he took with him. OU football had fallen apart at all but one position and had a huge rebuild ahead.

Lincoln Riley took his generational QB to USC. How did that work out for him? Last I checked, 10-2 is a lot better than 7-5.

Yes because Jalen Hurts and Baker were clearly generational talents before Riley coached them. That’s what Hurts lost his job and was widely considered undraftable at QB till he came to OU and resurrected his career. And Baker was obviously the no-doubt top QB in the country coming into Norman. That’s why he basically didn’t have any offers coming out of high school.

I get it. Some people are incapable of being remotely objective. In your world view, whoever the current OU coach is, is infallible. The former coach is automatically terrible. It is so, so funny. OU fans loved Riley. Sure, there were the usual grumbles after losses, but people largely viewed him as a boy wonder for 90 percent of his time in Norman. Because he handled his exit so poorly, people now engage in revisionist history and pretend like they hated his coaching. The fact remains, Brent the big talker has lost as many games in two years as Riley did in five. It’ll be interesting to see how many bad years it takes for people to stop giving him a free pass. He and the fans can only blame it on Riley’s roster for so long.

 

[SoonerBounce13]

Yes because Jalen Hurts and Baker were clearly generational talents before Riley coached them. That’s what Hurts lost his job and was widely considered undraftable at QB till he came to OU and resurrected his career. And Baker was obviously the no-doubt top QB in the country coming into Norman. That’s why he basically didn’t have any offers coming out of high school.

I get it. Some people are incapable of being remotely objective. In your world view, whoever the current OU coach is, is infallible. The former coach is automatically terrible. It is so, so funny. OU fans loved Riley. Sure, there were the usual grumbles after losses, but people largely viewed him as a boy wonder for 90 percent of his time in Norman. Because he handled his exit so poorly, people now engage in revisionist history and pretend like they hated his coaching. The fact remains, Brent the big talker has lost as many games in two years as Riley did in five. It’ll be interesting to see how many bad years it takes for people to stop giving him a free pass. He and the fans can only blame it on Riley’s roster for so long.

So many logical fallacies In this post lol
And just dumb takes as well

 

[TEvans4Three]

To be fair, really enjoyed the debates at the end of this thread.

Agree with @Boom Soon , Lon was hired to run a clean ship and did it well, then started to fade at the end. PM was hired on, I think more than a clean program guy...but Joe C wanted him to take less and do more with it, like Loyola. I think PM wanted more than what he got a Loyola and it may be close to what he got there.

Football:

Agree with @WichitaSooner, Lincoln Riley was and is absolutely a genius OC. He turned Baker and Hurts into Heisman winners. Baker was a walk-on. Hurts was rejected and couldn't throw to save his life at Bama...was a glorified passing half-back. Riley made them both a lot of money. What would have helped Riley? A better strength coach, a MUCH better defensive coord, and maybe a stint at a G5 school coaching to get a hang of how to manage a team. The problem is that OU felt like they couldn't afford to lose him, so he got the luckiest of promotions bc of his brilliance.

BV is learning to be a HC too, but slower. Lebby was a stop-gap and hopefully Seth can pick up the pace. But the defense is much better, the recruiting is much better...he just needs more time. Riley trended down, BV is trending up...but the future can still remain certain and both be true, for now.