Rank the conference (9-17-2010)

[thebigabd]

Last year most of this board thought Missouri would finish well into the bottom half of the conference. His predictions for Mizzou have been closer than most non-Mizzou fans over the past couple of years.

I always catch gruff for pimping Missouri... I don't know why, they prove it. They go to the NCAA every year, finish top half of the conference. They won the big 12 two years ago, and were a game off second place last year.

This is the most talented Mizzou team Anderson has had. Not sure why a top 3 finish is so ridiculous.

Mizzou has as much talent as anyone in the Big 12, if not more (he'd have four non-conference games and all of the conference season).

Mizzou will be as well put together as anyone in the Big 12 WITHOUT Tony Mitchell.

Other than KU winning it, that is the most ridiculous list I've ever seen.

Why?

 

[DFWHoopster]

Bigabd- OSU is solid. They remind me of some the past Aggie teams. But they are the best team in the South? They really can't play Page and Penn at the same time. Defenses would absolutely abuse them if they did whether it is man to man or zone.

Who is their go to guy when the game is on the line? You'll have to admit that there will be close games that they have to win. Last year, they could put the ball in Anderson or Obi's hands late in the game. Your top 6 teams all have go to guys:

KSU- Pullen
KU- Morris
Missouri- English
Baylor- Dunn
Texas Tech- Singletary

Who is that guy for OSU? Penn? Page? Pilgrim? Moses? All good players but not guys I would be confident that they can deliver buckets when needed. I don't see it.

 

[thebigabd]

I think OSU recruited two double-figure scoring guys in JP Olukemi (#1 juco in country) and Darrell Williams (#7 juco in country). I think OSU has a team where all 5 starters can average double figures.

Pilgrim averaged around 9 last year, Penn averaged 8 as a freshman. Lots of shots open up when Obi and Anderson left, and I think they have good scorer and a good team top to bottom.

Williams, Pilgrim, Moses, Cobbins, and Shaw up front.
Penn (8/3 as freshman), Page (11 per game), Olukemi (#1 juco), Markel Brown, Brian Williams, Nick Sidorakis, Fred Gulley at the guard spots.

They are deep, talented, athletic.

Of course, if you don't think JP Olukemi and Darrell Williams are going to come in and average double figures I can see why you don't think as highly of them as I do.

As for the go-to guy, I would guess Keiton Page. But like I said, I think they will have equal scoring.

 

[Cheno]

I always catch gruff for pimping Missouri... I don't know why, they prove it. They go to the NCAA every year, finish top half of the conference. They won the big 12 two years ago, and were a game off second place last year.

Myth..."They go to the NCAA every year"
Fact....In the last 7 years they've made 2 NCAA tournaments. Count 'em 2.

Myth..."They won the Big 12 two years ago"
Fact....They finished 3rd. KU was first. OU was 2nd

Myth..."Were a game off second place last year."
Fact....Finished 5th last year. And was 1-5 vs the 4 teams ahead of them. So yeah...I guess if they'd had beat all 4 teams ahead of them then they'd have had a chance at 2nd. LOL

I've seen KSU & Baylor both ranked as high as top 5-10. They both did it last year and have a lot back. Mizzou ain't finishing 2nd without Tony Mitchell. Isn't going to happen. Just like everything above didn't happen.

 

[sys]

penn can't shoot, gulley really can't shoot. none of the jucos or freshmen is considered a shooter. they only players they have that can shoot are page and sidorkis (a little).

no team that can't stretch a defense is going to finish in the top 4 of the big 12 ever. no matter how athletic they are. add in that you're expecting a bunch of first year jucos and freshmen to be good and it's just ridiculous. gilstrap from isu last year was probably the best first year juco the big 12 has had in the last 5 years or so, and he was a defensive liability, turnover prone and inconsistent (and his team was 4-12). even really good jucos take a year to acclimate.

btw, where are you getting williams and olukemi's rankings? juco junction has ratliffe #1. i don't know who else even ranks jucos.

 

[HoHum]

I think there is a fine line between what kind of season OSU is going to have. On one hand, they are very deep and there isn't a lot of drop off between the 1st squad and the 2nd squad. The main question is, of course, how effective offensively is that 1st squad going to be.

So, the season really hinges on how good of perimeter scorers Olukemi and Brown are this season.

I really think if Ford can land some of the big 2011 recruits that I think are a fairly good possibility, next season OSU could be really, really good. I'd be happy with another 9-7ish season, with a 6 or 7 seed in the tournament this season.

 

[sys]

Mizzou ain't finishing 2nd without Tony Mitchell. Isn't going to happen. Just like everything above didn't happen.

mitchell doesn't matter. great nba potential if he can get his jump shot consistent, but not the type of freshman that would have made a dramatic impact. hell, i'm not sure where he'd have gotten minutes. he wasn't going to take them from english or bowers. unless safford is still hurt, i don't think he'd be taking his minutes either.

getting ratliffe was way more important for them.

 

[thebigabd]

Myth..."They go to the NCAA every year"
Fact....In the last 7 years they've made 2 NCAA tournaments. Count 'em 2.

I meant since I started pimping them.

btw, where are you getting williams and olukemi's rankings? juco junction has ratliffe #1.

JP Olukemi was the #1 juco before he redshirted and left juco early to go to OSU.

penn can't shoot

Penn is supposed to be a good shooter.

that you're expecting a bunch of first year jucos and freshmen to be good and it's just ridiculous.

So you dont think Olukemi and Williams will be any good?

Myth..."They won the Big 12 two years ago"
Fact....They finished 3rd. KU was first. OU was 2nd

They won the Big 12 tournament championship two years ago. Here are some more facts:

• Missouri ranks #11 nationally with 54 wins the past two seasons
• The Tigers have won four NCAA Tournament games the past two seasons
• 2009 run to the NCAA Tournament's Elite Eight

Mike Anderson has Mizzou basketball rolling, which is the point here. I doubt he ever misses an NCAA Tournament again now that MU is established and he is signing top classes. He had to pull them out of the crapper, and he has done that. 31 wins and 23 wins, and you can bet they win 25+ this year.

I was right about Mizzou, there is no denying that.

So, the season really hinges on how good of perimeter scorers Olukemi and Brown are this season.

I wouldnt worry about those two guys... Both are going to be very good.

I've seen KSU & Baylor both ranked as high as top 5-10. They both did it last year and have a lot back.

Baylor also lost possibly the best PG in the league and the best PF in the league. Of course, OSU lost James Anderson but I am just going on gut feeling with what they have.

Based on talent alone, Baylor should probably be the best in the south. I wouldnt be surprised to see them finish 2nd or 3rd. I just like what OSU has this year. Of course, for OSU to be as good as I think they need Olukemi, Brown, and Williams to be legit. I think they will be, but you never know.

 

[sys]

So you dont think Olukemi and Williams will be any good?

i know very little about either player. never even seen a highlight clip.


i do know that very, very few jucos are much better than decent their first year. even ones with nba talent. and i have no idea if either of the osu recruits have that kind of potential.


btw, penn shot 27% from 3 last year. that'll come up as a soph, but i'll be amazed if he's "good".

 

[Sawyer]

Very convenient for Cheno to include Quin's last three years... Mizzou sucked then, but those years have absolutely nothing to do with the current Mizzou program. Everything that could be different is.

sys, disagree on Mitchell and Ratliffe.

I think Mitchell would have played plenty, either at the 3 or 4. He probably wouldn't start, but no one's going to play more than 25 minutes/game. There are still plenty of minutes for him at the 3/4 coming off the bench (15+ easily). He wouldn't need to take minutes from English, Bowers or Safford.

I haven't seen him play, but everything I've read suggests he would have been an impact player immediately in Anderson's style (perhaps that's the key).

Regarding Ratliffe, I'm not sure I'm buying in just yet. He's got tons of talent, and from that standpoint alone he's exactly what Mizzou needed. But there's a part of me that worries chemistry will be an issue. I'm not really basing that on anything real... just a feeling right now.

 

[Cheno]

Very convenient for Cheno to include Quin's last three years... Mizzou sucked then, but those years have absolutely nothing to do with the current Mizzou program. Everything that could be different is.

I'm not the one that said Missouri makes the tournament EVERY year.
So what...you consider the last two years EVERY year? LOL.
Jeez, Mizzou fans will grasp at anything.
So what you're saying is Mizzou has made it 50% of the time under Anderson? Still far from EVERY year.

They won the Big 12 tournament championship two years ago.

And they lost in the 1st round play-in game last year. So why in the same sentence would you say:
"They won the big 12 two years ago, and were a game off second place last year."
LOL. You always just change scenarios at a whim. If they won the Big 12 2 years ago then last year they finished dead last because they lost to the #12 seed in the play-in game.
Come 'on Big which is it? Be consistent.
Don't count the tourney in one year and the league in the other year and pawn it off as the same.
The tourney doesn't mean squat wouldn't you agree?

 

[thebigabd]

Don't count the tourney in one year and the league in the other year and pawn it off as the same.
The tourney doesn't mean squat wouldn't you agree?

Saying that the tourney doesn't mean squat is not only ridiculous, but an insult to the 3 straight Big 12 championships OU won under Kelvin Sampson.

In basketball, championships are decided by tournaments, not by final records. See NCAA Tournament, NIT Tournament, Preseason NIT Tournament, CBI Tournament, Maui Tournament, Great Alaska Tournament, etc for details.

Obviously it is fantastic for a KU fan to say they mean nothing, because you guys have a history of getting to play Colorado twice, Nebraska twice, K-State twice (who has sucked until recently), MU twice (who was bad for awhile), and ISU twice (who has been bad more than good).

So, KU gets to play a bunch of scabs twice and call themselves champions because they have a better record? Not only does that not fit in with how every other championship is determined in the entire context of global basketball competition, but it also makes no sense given the scheduling differences between schools.

So to answer your question, no, I do not agree that the Big 12 Tournament means squat. Neither do those players who won them for OU, neither do the coaches who won them for OU, and neither do our fans.
I would also venture a guess that every non-KU fan in the Big 12 feels the same way.

I'm not the one that said Missouri makes the tournament EVERY year.
So what...you consider the last two years EVERY year? LOL.
Jeez, Mizzou fans will grasp at anything.
So what you're saying is Mizzou has made it 50% of the time under Anderson? Still far from EVERY year.

You are avoiding the real issue here, which is the fact that Mike Anderson has resurrected the so-called "sleeping giant" that fans from other programs thought Mizzou could (and should) be in basketball. He is recruiting well, winning, won a conference championship, went to an elite 8.

After this season, he will have won 31 games, 23 games, and probably 25/26/27 games this year.

He has turned it around, which I predicted he would. That is the point here. When I started pimping them (and even to this day) you ripped on me for it, you rip on their players saying they arent any good, you rip on their coaches, fans, etc. You were wrong, others were right. Thats the point here.

 

[TINY]

1. KU
2. Mizzou
3. Texas
4. Baylor
5. KSU
6. A & M
7. Tech
8. OU
9. OSU
10. Colorado
11. ISU
12. Nebraska

 

[sys]

might as well do one, since someone is sure to bump this in march to either lol @ or laud bigabd.

1. ku
2. bu
3. ksu
4. a&m
5. mu
6. ut
7. cu
8. osu
9. ou
10. tech
11. nu
12. isu

 

[HoHum]

1. KU
2. KSU
3. TU
4. BU
5. OSU
6. MU
7. A&M
8. CU
9. Tech
10. OU
11. ISU
12. NU

 

[Cheno]

Saying that the tourney doesn't mean squat is not only ridiculous, but an insult to the 3 straight Big 12 championships OU won under Kelvin Sampson.

Jeez, this is even over the top for you. Why is it an insult to OU and Kelvin Sampson? KU has won BY FAR the most Big 12 titles. I'd be insulting KU wouldn't I?

The fact is this statement you made about Mizzou...........

They won the big 12 two years ago, and were a game off second place last year.

...doesn't even make sense. If Big 12 tourneys is your benchline then Mizzou got LAST this past season. Yet you spin it to a game off 2nd? Which is it? If the tourney is the baseline in the 4 years Mike Anderson has been at Mizzou he's lost his only game 3 times. One championship and 3 first round losses.

Obviously it is fantastic for a KU fan to say they mean nothing,

Quite possibly the :facepalm comment I've ever read. Do you know the history of the Big 12 tournament at all? KU has won over twice as many as any other school. KU has won more than all the South teams combined. If I say they mean nothing it's because as compared to the league title that is how I feel. KU has owned the Big 12 tourney. That's a fact. Don't hide from facts.

So, KU gets to play a bunch of scabs twice and call themselves champions because they have a better record?

So now Mizzou is a "scab". :ez-roll:
Dude you are all over the board and making yourself look silly.
KU gets to call themselves the clearcut champion regardless of whichever Big 12 championship you consider the most important. Again, these are facts. You can look them up if you need to.

Not only does that not fit in with how every other championship is determined in the entire context of global basketball competition, but it also makes no sense given the scheduling differences between schools.

Then why did you say Mizzou was a game away from 2nd last year?
They were 12th last year then. Dead last. You can't have it both ways.

So to answer your question, no, I do not agree that the Big 12 Tournament means squat. Neither do those players who won them for OU, neither do the coaches who won them for OU, and neither do our fans.
I would also venture a guess that every non-KU fan in the Big 12 feels the same way.

Again, KU has owned the Big 12 tournament. This statement makes no sense. You act like KU has struggled in the Big 12 tournament when in fact it's just the opposite.

You are avoiding the real issue here, which is the fact that Mike Anderson has resurrected the so-called "sleeping giant" that fans from other programs thought Mizzou could (and should) be in basketball.

Resurrected? They got last this past season. LOL

He has turned it around, which I predicted he would. That is the point here. When I started pimping them (and even to this day) you ripped on me for it, you rip on their players saying they arent any good, you rip on their coaches, fans, etc. You were wrong, others were right. Thats the point here.

They got LAST this past season. What are you talking about? Or in my eyes, 5th in the league race, which isn't anything to write home about like you do.

But at least we FINALLY got to the root of your prediction of 2nd place....you are trying to prove a point or prove people wrong. You do realize if they don't get 2nd you are wrong? Just like last year when I believe you picked them higher than 12th, or in my eyes, 5th in the league.

 

[thebigabd]

Why is it an insult to OU and Kelvin Sampson?

Because you said OU's tournament championships mean squat. How is that not insulting?

Do you know the history of the Big 12 tournament at all?

Yes.

KU has won over twice as many as any other school. KU has won more than all the South teams combined. If I say they mean nothing it's because as compared to the league title that is how I feel. KU has owned the Big 12 tourney. That's a fact. Don't hide from facts.

KU deserves props for the championships, never said they didnt. You are the one saying it means squat.

So now Mizzou is a "scab".
Dude you are all over the board and making yourself look silly.

They went through a long period of being a scab, I made that pretty clear. They obviously arent scabs anymore, but they were.

You act like KU has struggled in the Big 12 tournament

Where did I say that?

..doesn't even make sense. If Big 12 tourneys is your benchline then Mizzou got LAST this past season. Yet you spin it to a game off 2nd? Which is it? If the tourney is the baseline in the 4 years Mike Anderson has been at Mizzou he's lost his only game 3 times. One championship and 3 first round losses.

Its a winner take all type of deal in basketball. You can have a great season and get bounced early in a tournament. That doesnt mean you werent good, and nobody finishes "last". There is no "last place" team in the NCAA Tournament. There is no "last place" team in any tournament.

Case and point, the runner up for the national championship isnt ranked #2 in the nation in the final rankings. Thats just a silly argument, and you know it.

The regular season qualifies you for a certain position in a variety of tournaments, ranging from conference tournaments to post-season tournaments.

A great regular season is something to hang your hat on, but ultimately its not how championships are won in basketball.

The Blake Griffin sophomore year comes to mind. That team won nothing. No regular season, no tournament, no final four, etc. Yet, it was a great season and one to remember.

 

[stoops4pres]

Don't think Mizzou finishing in the upper-tier of the conference (from 2nd-4th) is entirely out of the question.

MA is one of the best coaches in the Big 12. Once he got the majority of his own players on the team they were one of the best teams in the country in 08-09, and had a solid season in what was arguably the best conference in the country this past year. I wouldn't be shocked to see his team finish high in the standings again this season.

 

[Mr.B!!!]

Don't think Mizzou finishing in the upper-tier of the conference (from 2nd-4th) is entirely out of the question.

MA is one of the best coaches in the Big 12. Once he got the majority of his own players on the team they were one of the best teams in the country in 08-09, and had a solid season in what was arguably the best conference in the country this past year. I wouldn't be shocked to see his team finish high in the standings again this season.

I think that Anderson is a bunch like Sampson, not in style but in results. Has a system, recruits to it, not generally going to wow you with said recruits, but will manage to stay in the top half of the conference more years than not. That is why when I pick Missouri, I generally add a spot or two to my prediction.

1. KU
2. KSU
3. UT
4. Mizzou
5. Baylor
6. aTm
7. oSu
8. Colorado
9. OU
10. Tech
11. Nebraska
12 ISU

Notes: I'm putting KU up there until someone proves me otherwise, going to give Mizzou an extra couple of spots over what I really think and drop Baylor two spots over what I really think (my other rule) and 6-9 are fairly interchangeable IMHO but OU has the most questions, so they get pegged at the bottom of the list.

 

[Max Power]

I dont see another team in the coference with as many questions coming into the season as OU. We could be anywhere from 3rd - 10th with KU and KSU being 1 and 2. I think Mizzou is number 3, but playing KU and KSU twice could easily mean 4 losses right there which moves you down the ladder. From there it is a crap shoot with Nebraska and ISU beign the 2 worst in the conference in my opinion