March Madness and Covid-19

[steverocks35]

You don't know humans do you?

Hospitals have readily admitted that they label it as covid if some dies while being infected with covid. Whether it was related or not to being injected.

Oh they've admitted to committing a federal crime and fraud? You'll have to show me a link to this claim.

 

[SoonerBounce13]

Because there have been published scholarly studies on the effects of shutdowns and economic downturns.

links?

I can't think of another shutdown like this in my lifetime.

 

[SoonerBounce13]

Oh they've admitted to committing a federal crime and fraud? You'll have to show me a link to this claim.

I don't know if it is a federal crime but there have been newstories about hospitals counting every death as covid if the person had tested positive for covid. I'll dig around and find them

 

[steverocks35]

links?

I can't think of another shutdown like this in my lifetime.

How about the Great Depression?

https://www.pnas.org/content/106/41/17290

 

[steverocks35]

I don't know if it is a federal crime but there have been newstories about hospitals counting every death as covid if the person had tested positive for covid. I'll dig around and find them

I'm not saying fraud is nonexistent, but I'm saying it's negligible compared to overall deaths and the probable under-count of Covid-19a deaths.

 

[SoonerBounce13]

How about the Great Depression?

https://www.pnas.org/content/106/41/17290

I wasn't alive for the great depression but that is the obvious one that comes to mind.

And I think that is a great case study to show the effects on health and death.

So would you rather us see another great depression (we are almost there) or allow a virus to take its course that likely has a death rate under 1%?

 

[Soonerinkc]

Conspiracy theory or not, I’m not buying. No way hospitals would miss the opportunity to increase their revenue by assigning the wrong diagnosis to patients. Nothing about that makes sense to me.

not sure if I put this on here....my wife and brother both know someone who's elderly parent died of a heart attack. NEITHER had covid.

Both had covid on their death certificate.

The families talked to the hospitals and were told there would be no change.

Medicare is paying hospitals 13K for covid patients and 39K if they go on a ventilator...that is a fact.

 

[Soonerinkc]

I'm not saying fraud is nonexistent, but I'm saying it's negligible compared to overall deaths and the probable under-count of Covid-19a deaths.

2 out of a 100 is 2%....considering the numbers they are pushing out there that seems like a "high" %...just a numbers game....more than 2/100...2% sounds more...is what I'm saying.

 

[thebigabd]

I don't know if it is a federal crime but there have been newstories about hospitals counting every death as covid if the person had tested positive for covid. I'll dig around and find them

That has to be pretty rare, and on top of that, there are other variables possible... Lets say a 79 year old had cancer, and also had Covid. That person dies. Should they say they died of Covid? Should they say they died of cancer? Should they put a cause of death of Covid AND Cancer? Did the Covid complicate the cancer? Did the cancer complicate the Covid? Etc...

So counting that as a Covid death, I wouldn't say it's shady. If someone is so jacked up that they have multiple potential causes of death, I don't think saying Covid played a role in that is shady.

Do you?

 

[SoonerBounce13]

That has to be pretty rare, and on top of that, there are other variables possible... Lets say a 79 year old had cancer, and also had Covid. That person dies. Should they say they died of Covid? Should they say they died of cancer? Should they put a cause of death of Covid AND Cancer? Did the Covid complicate the cancer? Did the cancer complicate the Covid? Etc...

So counting that as a Covid death, I wouldn't say it's shady. If someone is so jacked up that they have multiple potential causes of death, I don't think saying Covid played a role in that is shady.

Do you?

No I don't. I don't think it is pretty rare though

 

[WTSooner]

I wasn't alive for the great depression but that is the obvious one that comes to mind.

And I think that is a great case study to show the effects on health and death.

So would you rather us see another great depression (we are almost there) or allow a virus to take its course that likely has a death rate under 1%?

In terms of trying to gauge how this will affect other deaths and the health and economy overall, I think it's hard to use the GD. SO much has changed in every way of life imaginable since then.

 

[steverocks35]

In terms of trying to gauge how this will affect other deaths and the health and economy overall, I think it's hard to use the GD. SO much has changed in every way of life imaginable since then.

How about the Great Recession, 2008-2010? Close enough to 2020?

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0277953617304495

 

[Eielson]

Think of all of the painstaking research and work that allowed things like measles and polio and smallpox to be completely eradicated (more or less) from this planet. Think of all the time and effort those undertakings encompassed.

And then think about people who cast their lot with Jenny McCarthy in the fight against vaccines. I know she's hot, I watched Singled Out when I was a kid, but c'mon.

Think about that for a minute. That's what we're dealing with, and that fringe is growing every single day.

This is so true it hurts. I recently read about how economists have designed experiments where they pay an actor to go into a room and confidently shout out a wrong answer to an easy question. It has an unreal, unmistakable impact. Anti-vaxxers are real-world proof those experiments have validity outside of the lab.

 

[AdaSooner]

I'm not saying fraud is nonexistent, but I'm saying it's negligible compared to overall deaths and the probable under-count of Covid-19a deaths.

I saw one of many stories on TV last night about the high rate of infections in NY nursing homes attributed to hospitals releasing Covid patients back into the nursing home population. The excuse given to was to prevent “overloading the healthcare system.” We both know the real reason was their DRG had run out and those patients would be a financial liability from that time forward.

If hospitals will give elderly nursing home patients the boot when there is no chance of additional revenue, you’d better believe they will find a way to improve their revenue stream by going with the best diagnosis available. All it takes is a doctor’s signature. If a patient came in with an upper respiratory problem or heart condition, but their Covid test was positive, hospitals will go with the best paying DRG and not think twice about it.

I’m okay with that as long as it’s not out and out fraud. Most hospitals, especially those in rural areas, struggle to keep the doors open these days.

 

[steverocks35]

This is so true it hurts. I recently read about how economists have designed experiments where they pay an actor to go into a room and confidently shout out a wrong answer to an easy question. It has an unreal, unmistakable impact. Anti-vaxxers are real-world proof those experiments have validity outside of the lab.

This is spot-on and it’s why leadership is so important.

 

[stormspencer]

That is my question. And if not, where exactly is the cutoff between what should require a vaccine, and what shouldn't.

IMHO, these childhood vaccines are absolutely necessary:

• HepA/HepB
• MMR (Measles Mumps Rubella)
• DTaP (Diptheria, Pertussis, Tetanus)
• IPV (Polio)
• PCV13 (Pneumococcal)
• RV (Rotavirus)

The main reason is that most of the above infectious disease are airborne-spread. And also the primary reason I'm against open borders without specific legal cause to be here. We have no idea who is illegally coming into this country and what public health risk that they are bringing with them.

Flu vaccine yearly is recommended.....especially when you get to by my age. It isn't foolproof. I've read it's anywhere from 35-60% effective depending on the yearly strains.....but that is better than nothing.

 

[Eielson]

That isn't really fair and i cant comment for everyone but comparing covid and smallpox/measles/polio is ridiculous. The death rates for those are so much higher the covid. Without a vaccine, the deathrate of covid is similar to the deathrate of the flu with a vaccine.

The death rates are still changing daily with COVID, so I won't make a firm stance on what they are, but I wouldn't be surprised if it ended up with a higher mortality percent than measles. Probably not as easily spread, though.

I'm for vaccines when they are ethically sourced and have an actual need for the common good and when they work.

Agreed, but what vaccines are we using that don't work?

It should be a choice. If you want to protect yourself and your family, get a vaccine. if you want to risk it, risk it

To me, that's akin to saying that driving drunk should be legal since you're the one driving. You aren't the only one affected.

 

[SoonerBounce13]

The death rates are still changing daily with COVID, so I won't make a firm stance on what they are, but I wouldn't be surprised if it ended up with a higher mortality percent than measles. Probably not as easily spread, though.

Isn't measals like 10%? I could be way off

Agreed, but what vaccines are we using that don't work?

I suppose they all work persay. But I don't consider the flu very effective from year to year. Why don't we get a vaccine for all the different strains each year? Why are we limited to 1 guess?

To me, that's akin to saying that driving drunk should be legal since you're the one driving. You aren't the only one affected.

Not really. It goes back to what was said earlier...how many people cannot get a vaccine that want it in the US? 100? 1,000? 10,000? I don't know what it is but it has to be very meniscule. So theoretically, if everyone that wants to get a vacine gets it, and everyone that doesn't want one doesn't get it, then nobody that wants it would be affected y those that don't want it.

Victims of drunk drivers don't have an option to protect themselves. People that want vaccines do

 

[Eielson]

So by me not getting a vaccine while you do get it is endangering you how exactly?

In general, the fallacy with this argument that most making it assume that vaccines either work 100% or 0%. In reality, neither extreme exists (technically some vaccine attempts failed and may have been 0%, but those aren't available/required). If a vaccine results in 95% immunity without significant side effects, that is considered an exceptional vaccine. Unfortunately, that means that 5% didn't respond to the vaccine. And then, of course, there are those that are immunocompromised, have severe allergies, etc that aren't candidates for the vaccine. If we vaccinate everybody, those 5% that are vulnerable to the infection benefit greatly from herd immunity, as we've eliminated 95% of the hosts and drastically reduced their odds of exposure.

 

[SoonerBounce13]

In general, the fallacy with this argument that most making it assume that vaccines either work 100% or 0%. In reality, neither extreme exists (technically some vaccine attempts failed and may have been 0%, but those aren't available/required). If a vaccine results in 95% immunity without significant side effects, that is considered an exceptional vaccine. Unfortunately, that means that 5% didn't respond to the vaccine. And then, of course, there are those that are immunocompromised, have severe allergies, etc that aren't candidates for the vaccine. If we vaccinate everybody, those 5% that are vulnerable to the infection benefit greatly from herd immunity, as we've eliminated 95% of the hosts and drastically reduced their odds of exposure.

Thanks. And I'm totally on board with this for most vaccines.
Where I'm not is when it is for something like the flu