#21 OU vs #6 KU 3pm CST on ESPN

[BoulderSooner]

It’s a skill he doesn’t have. He is a 26 percent shooter. His high school and practice numbers are irrelevant. We are 26 games into the season and when he checks into games, the only thing anyone keeps bringing up is that he made a couple shots in Lawrence six weeks ago.

The issue isn’t that the game is too fast. It’s that he is too slow. No foot speed or quickness. Is that going to change? I have no doubt he could make shots in high school and probably could at a low major where he would have more time to get his shot off. Comparing him to Manek isn’t remotely accurate. Brady had one of the fastest releases I’ve ever seen, and it was there from day one of his freshman year.

If he is part of our core, it basically guarantees we will be in the lower half of our league moving forward.

no young player ever improves .. especially big men so thats fine ..

 

[BoulderSooner]

It's about the argument that the Big 12 has improved SO much over the last decade. If so, why hasn't OU?

lack of commitment by fans and in some cases the administration ..

 

[WichitaSooner]

no young player ever improves .. especially big men so thats fine ..

Do unathletic guys ever become good athletes? Because that’s what Luke needs to have happen.

 

[Boom Soon]

Do unathletic guys ever become good athletes? Because that’s what Luke needs to have happen.

I don’t think we should completely write the kid off yet. A lot the problems I see stem from lack of playing time. I don’t see why he can’t fill Hugley’s role.

 

[BoulderSooner]

Do unathletic guys ever become good athletes? Because that’s what Luke needs to have happen.

true there has never been a good college 5 that is 6'11 245 that wasn't a great athlete ..

 

[WTSooner]

lack of commitment by fans and in some cases the administration ..

It's opinion, but it's not one I share. I think that is a cop out. Capel, Kruger, and now Moser aren't shots in the dark (maybe Capel was). All three were somewhere between highly and VERY highly regarded when hired.

The arena isn't the issue some make it out to be. What is an issue is getting reasonably talented players on campus, but not getting the most out of them.

 

[WichitaSooner]

true there has never been a good college 5 that is 6'11 245 that wasn't a great athlete ..

Well I’m sure Majerus lite is just the guy to develop him!

 

[TEvans4Three]

Better than we were before the Big 12 as a whole improved?

No.

This isn't about being better than last year. It's about the argument that the Big 12 has improved SO much over the last decade. If so, why hasn't OU?

Average final KenPom ranking of OU for all coaches, back to Sampson:

Sampson - 28.25 (1999-2006 is KP and 1995-1998 is the SRS by sports-reference as KP doesn't track prior to 1999)
Capel III - 71.4
Kruger - 42.7 (35.78 minus that first year Kruger had)
Moser - 40 (Current KP at 36, may change as the season goes on)

If you start nitpicking and take away first year takeovers, it becomes a subjective conversation. Bc other could point to removing (Kruger) his 2 good years as flash in the pan and it drops to 43-50 depending on how you want to slice the data.

 

[WTSooner]

Average final KenPom ranking of OU for all coaches, back to Sampson:

Sampson - 28.25 (1999-2006 is KP and 1995-1998 is the SRS by sports-reference as KP doesn't track prior to 1999)
Capel III - 71.4
Kruger - 42.7 (35.78 minus that first year Kruger had)
Moser - 40 (Current KP at 36, may change as the season goes on)

If you start nitpicking and take away first year takeovers, it becomes a subjective conversation. Bc other could point to removing (Kruger) his 2 good years as flash in the pan and it drops to 43-50 depending on how you want to slice the data.

I think the better way to measure it, since we're talking about our improvement (or lack thereof) compared to other conference schools would be to show our Big 12 finish.

That said, I don't need numbers or stats to tell me that MANY in the Big 12 have improved more than OU has over the last 10-15 years.

 

[TINY]

I think the better way to measure it, since we're talking about our improvement (or lack thereof) compared to other conference schools would be to show our Big 12 finish.

That said, I don't need numbers or stats to tell me that MANY in the Big 12 have improved more than OU has over the last 10-15 years.

It doesn’t make sense to cut the sample data set in half for conference games only. In statistics, that mindset will produce worse outcomes.

KP metrics for the entire season is better than just a conference sample. More data is better (unless u r trying to manipulate the data set to fit a specific narrative, of course).

 

[TEvans4Three]

I think the better way to measure it, since we're talking about our improvement (or lack thereof) compared to other conference schools would be to show our Big 12 finish.

That said, I don't need numbers or stats to tell me that MANY in the Big 12 have improved more than OU has over the last 10-15 years.

Man, do I have some great news for you...you can actually use stats to look at that!

The tough part becomes, what does your subjective opinion on improvement mean? I know you will spin the facts as you want, but here is a breakdown of all the KP finished from 2013-2024 since TCU and others joined then when Missouri and all left.

2023 Standings

Team

2024​

2023​

2022​

2021​

2020​

2019​

2018​

2017​

2016​

2015​

2014​

2013​

Average

Last 6 years

Last 7-12 years

Kansas

17​

9​

3​

27​

1​

17​

9​

6​

3​

12​

7​

8​

9.92​

12.33333333​

7.5​

Baylor

14​

16​

4​

2​

3​

35​

34​

13​

24​

14​

26​

28​

17.75​

12.33​

23.17​

Oklahoma

36​

54​

30​

39​

36​

32​

48​

65​

10​

11​

30​

51​

36.83​

37.83​

35.83​

Texas

33​

5​

15​

26​

61​

25​

36​

70​

39​

24​

41​

94​

39.08​

27.50​

50.67​

Iowa St.

9​

29​

43​

171​

89​

15​

103​

17​

20​

16​

20​

30​

46.83​

59.33​

34.33​

West Virginia

145​

19​

66​

23​

10​

95​

12​

7​

8​

25​

58​

123​

49.25​

59.67​

38.83​

Oklahoma St.

101​

46​

34​

33​

53​

83​

59​

22​

98​

38​

21​

24​

51.00​

58.33​

43.67​

Kansas St.

71​

21​

61​

147​

90​

20​

42​

30​

55​

81​

45​

27​

57.50​

68.33​

46.67​

Texas Tech

25​

63​

7​

17​

21​

5​

11​

41​

54​

155​

80​

239​

59.83​

23.00​

96.67​

TCU

32​

25​

26​

140​

86​

40​

24​

29​

136​

56​

212​

265​

89.25​

58.17​

120.33​

Big12 Conf

48.3​

28.7​

28.9​

62.5​

45​

36.7​

37.8​

30​

44.7​

43.2​

54​

88.9​

45.725​

41.68333333​

49.76666667​

Fun fact, over the last 12 years, OU has been the 3rd most consistent program ranking wise. Statistically.
5th best in the last 6 years, 4th best in the years 6-12.

Here is my color breakdown:


Also, if you want to argue about conference finish, then you have to look at the season as a whole and the toughness of each year. You are just cherry picking at this point. What matters more to you? Finishing overall during a season, or the final Big12 rank?

 

[TINY]

Man, do I have some great news for you...you can actually use stats to look at that!

The tough part becomes, what does your subjective opinion on improvement mean? I know you will spin the facts as you want, but here is a breakdown of all the KP finished from 2013-2024 since TCU and others joined then when Missouri and all left.

2023 Standings

Team

2024​

2023​

2022​

2021​

2020​

2019​

2018​

2017​

2016​

2015​

2014​

2013​

Average

Last 6 years

Last 7-12 years

Kansas

17​

9​

3​

27​

1​

17​

9​

6​

3​

12​

7​

8​

9.92​

12.33333333​

7.5​

Baylor

14​

16​

4​

2​

3​

35​

34​

13​

24​

14​

26​

28​

17.75​

12.33​

23.17​

Oklahoma

36​

54​

30​

39​

36​

32​

48​

65​

10​

11​

30​

51​

36.83​

37.83​

35.83​

Texas

33​

5​

15​

26​

61​

25​

36​

70​

39​

24​

41​

94​

39.08​

27.50​

50.67​

Iowa St.

9​

29​

43​

171​

89​

15​

103​

17​

20​

16​

20​

30​

46.83​

59.33​

34.33​

West Virginia

145​

19​

66​

23​

10​

95​

12​

7​

8​

25​

58​

123​

49.25​

59.67​

38.83​

Oklahoma St.

101​

46​

34​

33​

53​

83​

59​

22​

98​

38​

21​

24​

51.00​

58.33​

43.67​

Kansas St.

71​

21​

61​

147​

90​

20​

42​

30​

55​

81​

45​

27​

57.50​

68.33​

46.67​

Texas Tech

25​

63​

7​

17​

21​

5​

11​

41​

54​

155​

80​

239​

59.83​

23.00​

96.67​

TCU

32​

25​

26​

140​

86​

40​

24​

29​

136​

56​

212​

265​

89.25​

58.17​

120.33​

Big12 Conf

48.3​

28.7​

28.9​

62.5​

45​

36.7​

37.8​

30​

44.7​

43.2​

54​

88.9​

45.725​

41.68333333​

49.76666667​

Fun fact, over the last 12 years, OU has been the 3rd most consistent program ranking wise. Statistically.
5th best in the last 6 years, 4th best in the years 6-12.

Here is my color breakdown:
View attachment 999

Also, if you want to argue about conference finish, then you have to look at the season as a whole and the toughness of each year. You are just cherry picking at this point. What matters more to you? Finishing overall during a season, or the final Big12 rank?

Gotta admit this data is surprising in a good way. Thanks for putting it together, @TEvans4Three

 

[cbertus6]

Man, do I have some great news for you...you can actually use stats to look at that!

The tough part becomes, what does your subjective opinion on improvement mean? I know you will spin the facts as you want, but here is a breakdown of all the KP finished from 2013-2024 since TCU and others joined then when Missouri and all left.

2023 Standings

Team

2024​

2023​

2022​

2021​

2020​

2019​

2018​

2017​

2016​

2015​

2014​

2013​

Average

Last 6 years

Last 7-12 years

Kansas

17​

9​

3​

27​

1​

17​

9​

6​

3​

12​

7​

8​

9.92​

12.33333333​

7.5​

Baylor

14​

16​

4​

2​

3​

35​

34​

13​

24​

14​

26​

28​

17.75​

12.33​

23.17​

Oklahoma

36​

54​

30​

39​

36​

32​

48​

65​

10​

11​

30​

51​

36.83​

37.83​

35.83​

Texas

33​

5​

15​

26​

61​

25​

36​

70​

39​

24​

41​

94​

39.08​

27.50​

50.67​

Iowa St.

9​

29​

43​

171​

89​

15​

103​

17​

20​

16​

20​

30​

46.83​

59.33​

34.33​

West Virginia

145​

19​

66​

23​

10​

95​

12​

7​

8​

25​

58​

123​

49.25​

59.67​

38.83​

Oklahoma St.

101​

46​

34​

33​

53​

83​

59​

22​

98​

38​

21​

24​

51.00​

58.33​

43.67​

Kansas St.

71​

21​

61​

147​

90​

20​

42​

30​

55​

81​

45​

27​

57.50​

68.33​

46.67​

Texas Tech

25​

63​

7​

17​

21​

5​

11​

41​

54​

155​

80​

239​

59.83​

23.00​

96.67​

TCU

32​

25​

26​

140​

86​

40​

24​

29​

136​

56​

212​

265​

89.25​

58.17​

120.33​

Big12 Conf

48.3​

28.7​

28.9​

62.5​

45​

36.7​

37.8​

30​

44.7​

43.2​

54​

88.9​

45.725​

41.68333333​

49.76666667​

Fun fact, over the last 12 years, OU has been the 3rd most consistent program ranking wise. Statistically.
5th best in the last 6 years, 4th best in the years 6-12.

Here is my color breakdown:
View attachment 999

Also, if you want to argue about conference finish, then you have to look at the season as a whole and the toughness of each year. You are just cherry picking at this point. What matters more to you? Finishing overall during a season, or the final Big12 rank?

Not to make you do more work, but it would be cool to add a column for the last 3 years as well since that essentially would show the "Moser era" for OU. I have a sneaking suspicion that the average Big 12 rating in that column will look much better for most teams over that three year stretch than the last 6 or last 7-12, which would confirm that there has been a notable jump in competition after Moser took over. Not excusing him, he has things he needs to do better, but it really is a bloodbath out there right now.

 

[TEvans4Three]

Not to make you do more work, but it would be cool to add a column for the last 3 years as well since that essentially would show the "Moser era" for OU. I have a sneaking suspicion that the average Big 12 rating in that column will look much better for most teams over that three year stretch than the last 6 or last 7-12, which would confirm that there has been a notable jump in competition after Moser took over. Not excusing him, he has things he needs to do better, but it really is a bloodbath out there right now.

Here ya go:

Team	2024​	2023​	2022​	3-yr Average
Kansas	17​	9​	3​	9.67​
Baylor	14​	16​	4​	11.33​
Texas	33​	5​	15​	17.67​
Iowa St.	9​	29​	43​	27.00​
TCU	32​	25​	26​	27.67​
Texas Tech	25​	63​	7​	31.67​
Oklahoma	36​	54​	30​	40.00​
Kansas St.	71​	21​	61​	51.00​
Oklahoma St.	101​	46​	34​	60.33​
West Virginia	145​	19​	66​	76.67​
Big12 Conf	48.3​	28.7​	28.9​	35.30

 

[WTSooner]

Also, if you want to argue about conference finish, then you have to look at the season as a whole and the toughness of each year. You are just cherry picking at this point. What matters more to you? Finishing overall during a season, or the final Big12 rank?

Dude, **** like this is why I left the site.

We're talking about the increased competitiveness of the Big 12 and how that has affected OU's program. Right? OU isn't doing as well as we'd like, and "the Big 12 being tougher than it ever has" is often used as the excuse as to why. Period. That has happened. Frequently.

We don't even needs stats or numbers to have that discussion. If OU's place in the Big 12 has fallen because the Big 12 has gotten tougher, the question still remains, why has the Big 12 improved and OU has not? That's a valid question.

 

[WTSooner]

Dude, **** like this is why I left the site.

We're talking about the increased competitiveness of the Big 12 and how that has affected OU's program. Right? OU isn't doing as well as we'd like, and "the Big 12 being tougher than it ever has" is often used as the excuse as to why. Period. That has happened. Frequently.

We don't even needs stats or numbers to have that discussion. If OU's place in the Big 12 has fallen because the Big 12 has gotten tougher, the question still remains, why has the Big 12 improved and OU has not? That's a valid question.

I'm not sure why you are bringing KP ratings into this. Has NOTHING to do with the conversation I'm trying to have.

Fact: OU basketball has fallen off in the post-Kelvin years.
Fact: A lot of OU fans want to blame that on being in a much, much tougher conference.
Fact: It's a valid question to ask why other members of the Big 12 have been able to improve while OU has not.

KP ratings don't really factor into that discussion. KP ratings can't explain the why. KP ratings can't explain why OU can't put a consistent top 25-30 team on the floor year-after-year like we used to be able to. Again, I get it, the schedule (Big 12 schedule) may be tougher. Cool. That means some of those teams got better. Why couldn't OU equally improve during that same time? THAT is the question. Hint.....KP can't help you with the answer.

 

[WTSooner]

It doesn’t make sense to cut the sample data set in half for conference games only. In statistics, that mindset will produce worse outcomes.

It 100% makes sense when the argument I'm trying to tear apart is the argument that the Big 12 being significantly tougher has lead to OU's slide as a program. Why in the world would we look at OOC schedules that aren't consistent/comparable for THAT discussion? Answer.....we wouldn't.

 

[TEvans4Three]

I'm not sure why you are bringing KP ratings into this. Has NOTHING to do with the conversation I'm trying to have.

Fact: OU basketball has fallen off in the post-Kelvin years.
Fact: A lot of OU fans want to blame that on being in a much, much tougher conference.
Fact: It's a valid question to ask why other members of the Big 12 have been able to improve while OU has not.

KP ratings don't really factor into that discussion. KP ratings can't explain the why. KP ratings can't explain why OU can't put a consistent top 25-30 team on the floor year-after-year like we used to be able to. Again, I get it, the schedule (Big 12 schedule) may be tougher. Cool. That means some of those teams got better. Why couldn't OU equally improve during that same time? THAT is the question. Hint.....KP can't help you with the answer.

Unclear why you are allergic to stats/rankings figures.

KP shows teams efficiency by the end of the year. You wanted to compare teams of the last 10-15 years. Rank is the best way to do that. I will not use your eyes as judgment, sorry, just won't.

Your statement was, " MANY in the Big 12 have improved more than OU has over the last 10-15 years." I showed that OU has been one of the most consistent schools of the last 12 years, that is proven by facts. YOU brought that up, I just gave you ranking data to show you that your statement was not correct. (as far as results, many more teams have improved facilities, that is for sure)

If you want to say OU has not kept up with the rest of the Big12 in the last 3 years, I 100% agree. That shows with us being just below the half-way mark of Big12 rankings per KP. If you want to say that fans think our conference has been tougher and has led to a tougher road bc of it, absolutely agree there. Fans, myself included, think the conference has been tougher and there is proof to show that. But you are also correct in that teams like Kansas, Baylor, Texas, and ISU have seemed to risen above the conference.

As far as the reasoning, it depends on what type of pariah you want to be. Do you want to blame Moser? LNC? NIL funding? Fans? Everyone seems to have their poison. I never tried to invalidate you asking the question why? But in a previous post I did say that it is tough to assign blame when the cycle of blame seems to go:

LNC sucks -> Need more fans -> Need to win more games (better coaching) -> Need more NIL for better roster -> Need more $$$ from fan support -> (repeat)

But to say OU has fallen off in the last 10-15 years just isn't true. They have been consistent in the league, not more not less. If you want to argue they should be more, that is fine and fair, but they should at least throw more money into the program to make that happen. There is a reason KU is consistently at the top and why they football programs is garbage.

You can never convince me to not show ratings/data in a discussion where your point is subjective.

I am one that thinks OU is a top-30ish maybe Top-40 program, no more no less. Until we start funding like a Top-15 program, we just won't be that. (That includes full staff support as well, you can only go so far)

 

[IndySooner]

We don't even needs stats or numbers to have that discussion. If OU's place in the Big 12 has fallen because the Big 12 has gotten tougher, the question still remains, why has the Big 12 improved and OU has not? That's a valid question.

Texas, Houston and Baylor have all built new arenas. Iowa State will always have years where they're really good. TCU has a really good coach. K-State caught lightning in a bottle last year and has fallen back this year. Kansas is Kansas. BYU is having an UP year. WVU and OSU a DOWN year. UCF, eh. Tech is about where Tech should be.

Why has OU not improved? Well, for one, a complete rebuild starting AFTER the recruiting and transfer season three years ago. That put Porter behind the 8-ball from the start. Last year, we felt that the most, as two of our most talented players were freshmen. In his first real FULL recruiting cycle, Porter got better this year. But, we still don't have the NEW ARENA and facilities to make much noise with recruits. Couple that with the fact that we are NOT a basketball school like Iowa State - our fans just don't show up - and there's not much to sell outside of Porter Moser. Oh, and our NIL is non-existent.

So...that's why. Although, I'd argue we ARE much improved this season and should be again next season - unless we start all over again.

 

[WichitaSooner]

Texas, Houston and Baylor have all built new arenas. Iowa State will always have years where they're really good. TCU has a really good coach. K-State caught lightning in a bottle last year and has fallen back this year. Kansas is Kansas. BYU is having an UP year. WVU and OSU a DOWN year. UCF, eh. Tech is about where Tech should be.

Why has OU not improved? Well, for one, a complete rebuild starting AFTER the recruiting and transfer season three years ago. That put Porter behind the 8-ball from the start. Last year, we felt that the most, as two of our most talented players were freshmen. In his first real FULL recruiting cycle, Porter got better this year. But, we still don't have the NEW ARENA and facilities to make much noise with recruits. Couple that with the fact that we are NOT a basketball school like Iowa State - our fans just don't show up - and there's not much to sell outside of Porter Moser. Oh, and our NIL is non-existent.

So...that's why. Although, I'd argue we ARE much improved this season and should be again next season - unless we start all over again.

Complete rebuild … other than three starters. And portal season was still in full swing. How else did we get the brothers and Goldwire? Moser was hired in early April. Why are we pretending that he got the job in the middle of the summer and there weren’t still players available?